What the hell happened?

Discussion in 'Sex and Relationships' started by VanGogh, Dec 25, 2010.

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  1. VanGogh

    VanGogh New Member

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    My wife and I are in our 50s now, empty-nesters and seemingly happy grandparents. Everything was great for years in the bedroom. We had great sex, great companionship, did a few crazy things from time to time... we'd go 'parking' once in a while (got caught a couple times), I got her a stripper for her birthday one year and she got to do a few things with him, we even had a steady girlfriend for a while a number of years ago. We had romantic evenings where I'd put on some romantic music, blindfold her and give her a bath, a massage and just have affection without sex... and other times, she'd play some games with me, like calling a friend (while Im listening in) and getting the conversation around to our sex life and "accidentally" revealing things like how "huge" I am (I'm not) just to get a reaction. Other times, we'd go out to a bar and I'd put my hand under her skirt and pleasure her right there in public. I know she liked these things, and the other little games we'd play from time to time, because she brought them up more than I did. Things were fine between us until about two years ago.

    It was like someone turned off the lightswitch on her libido. One night I went to bed, put my hand on her stomach and she just rolled over away from me. We haven't had any sex of any kind since then. I now sleep in the guest room and we're talking less and less. I've asked her a thousand times what's going on. Is it a health issue, a hygiene issue, did I do something you find disgusting, are you in pain, are you "dry" or does it hurt, is it my deteriorating looks, is it being a grandma - like a "grandmas aren't supposed to have sex" thing, do you think I had an affair, or did someone tell you I had an affair (I didn't), did YOU have an affair (we can work it out), is there something you want, is it something we did that you now think is dirty, am I too jealous, am I not jealous enough, did I not pick up my dirty underwear fast enough?? When I suggested that maybe menopause had diminished her sex drive and maybe she should ask her doctor about it, she actually started hitting me with her fists!!! Well, it was that girl-hitting thing with the side of the fist, not punches, but still... it was a shock to experience that.

    Well, this "pursuit of the truth" went on for months. Finally, I gave up. In all these years, we've never not been able to talk about anything until now. And I've never been tempted to stray until recently, and it's a concern... because her sister (in her 40s and divorced) has been sniffing around and dropping hints like she knows what's going on, and suddenly she needs all this work done at her house. So, I go over to hang a ceiling fan or fix a cabinet door or stop a running toilet, because I'm "such a good guy"... and she's there in a little robe or some such thing. One night I went over to fix a broken pane in a bedroom window, and she "accidentally" left the bathroom door open a couple inches while she took a shower (what am I, stupid?). Well, I saw what I saw (wow - very nice for 47) and downstairs a bit later I found myself walking up behind her and putting my arm around her waist and pressing my face to the side of her neck, and that's not all I was pressing into her. She didn't pull away. We ended up fooling around a bit (kissing and feeling - that's all, like a couple schoolkids I guess) before I left. She was starting to unbuckle my belt when I thought "I gotta get out of here before I do something I'll really regret". I had such a hard-on I could barely fit in behind the wheel of my car, and I realized this thing is a lot worse than I thought.

    I'd definitely rather fix things with my wife than go down the road of having an affair with her sister... but with things being the way they are, and the sister being right there (and still calling - and every time I talk to her, I can feel her rubbing up against me - ARGH!), I've got a nasty problem. I've been spending a long time in the shower lately... if you take my meaning. Wreck a 35-year marriage over this frustration (our marriage could survive an affair, but an affair with her sister probably would cross a line, eh?) or do I go into a new round of trying to figure out what the hell happened? And, I have no idea how to even start trying to fix this thing. Plus, everything else between us is fine. We see the kids and grandkids, go places, concerts, go shopping, parties, visits, etc etc etc. Just this. And I don't know what to do.

    Thanks for letting me rant... in my very first post.
     
    #1 VanGogh, Dec 25, 2010
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2010
  2. Hot Wheels

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    Firstly...welcome to SF VanGogh:D

    I feel for you...I really do mate....:ugh
    Its hard enough to be going through something like this in the first place, let alone having her sister playing in the background.....:eyes
    I wish I could give you some sort of magical cure but I'll have to have a good hard think on this one....
    I'll be very interested to see what other members come up with for this situation....:shrug
     
  3. Godiva

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    Oh....My.....Gawd.......
    Her sister, is canivingly (spelling?) evil- to know that she would hurt her sister like that?!!!!
    Ok, I'm going to ask something. You say that you asked her these things, but you never said how she answered you. Or try to get her to tell you WHY she WON'T tell you.
    I actually do have a sneaking suspicion, that it's menopause. She really cannot help it- but she could most definitely get help from the doctors. But in that state, she probably doesn't WANT to get help. You have to tell her that you can't go on getting to intimacy from her, if you can't.
    I wouldn't wanna be with someone who didn't wanna even TRY to make ME feel better. Do you experience other forms of affection?
    I think you need to get an answer from her, tell her you love her and you want to show her your love in an intimate way. Baby steps...
    Make her feel sexy....

    Since it seems really sudden, i think somethign happened to her that she heard...or whatever...maybe she is ashamed? Maybe it's hormones but it shouldn't happen so fast. I'd really ask and get an answer out of her. And if she won't suggest counseling because you're at your wits end.

    She should have the decency, to give you an answer.
     
  4. htoad

    htoad Active Member

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    I applaud you for wanting to work things out with your wife, and the temptation by her seemingly willing sister is understandable. But the LAST thing you want to do is to have an affair with a close relative like that The "release" it gives you will not be worth the family grief, pain, and conflict that will occur (and assume you *will* be found out). My observation is that people look much more harshly at affairs with close friends/family members than affairs with strangers/escorts/prostitutes.

    What is going on with your wife outside of the bedroom? Perhaps something has changed that is now affecting her? Perhaps she thinks she is simply "too old" now? What type of friends does she have, and what are their attitude? My wife is 50, and I know that her having friends who encourage her sexuality certainly adds to her sexual desire. On the other hand, she has also talked to women her age how simply feel they are "too old" and do not understand why their husbands still want to. In my view the best thing you can do is to continue to show her you love her and care for her regardless of this change. Let her know that you still desire her sexually, but more importantly you care about her even with this change. Do not pepper her with "what's wrong?" questions, but do things that show your love and care still exists.

    Above all, be patient. You have had 35 years of great sex and memories, is it worth throwing away now? Look at the big picture - if she were ill, how long would you be willing to care for her? You are in the "for better or for worse" challenge phase of a marriage, and that is where you find what your real foundation is.
     
  5. VanGogh

    VanGogh New Member

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    She admits nothing, and won't tell me anything. I've suggested everything from her OB-GYN to marriage counseling to talking to other couples in our age group. I've also never been able to crack the code on why she's putting up the resistance to even talking about it.

    Good questions. In some ways, our marriage otherwise is better than ever. This month so far we've been to the symphony, two holiday concerts, we went to an art exhibit, have been shopping for the grandkids all month, two Christmas parties, a movie and several family gatherings. We always have plenty of laughs, and there's never any tension between us... until I start thinking about not getting laid for two freakin' years. We do everything together, and love each other's company. We still laugh at each other's jokes, and we still find each other interesting personally. But, if I *dare* to bring up the subject of sex, it's like Mrs. Hyde shows up. Sometimes, when I've brought up the subject in what I thought might be a new, fresh way... it seems like it's the first time she's hearing it, because she always seems shocked at first. Then comes the tears and screaming. It's weird, though, because I can say things like "Yes, honey, that dress does indeed make your butt look big," and she'd say "Thanks" and go change. I could tell her that daytime lighting accentuates her wrinkles, and she'd simply change her makeup. We still hold hands when we go for a walk at our local park or at the malland we still sit close in the car like we did when we were kids. I feel like I'm in bizarro world.

    Short answer on the friends is that there are two women she does things with. Both are over 65 and widowed. Hmmm... you don't think she's thinking about being widowed...?? Maybe I better not drink the iced tea!!
     
  6. Logger

    Gold Member

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    You don't mention your listening skills, or how you encourage your wife to vent about anything she might want to talk about.

    I have cut my wife off from talking about topics did not want to hear about. Since I have read about Spiderwebbing in Love and Respect, I realize that women need to vent about whatever they want to talk about. Sarrah Eggerichs really explains her needs for venting, so that I understood her, on the DVD's.

    I also practice complimenting my wife. I am not a natural giver of compliments. I needd to work on it. I have started two threads on compliments.

    http://www.sexualforums.com/26502-compliments.html


    http://www.sexualforums.com/11240-esteem-compliments-for-women-wives.html

    I don't see a thread that i have started on Listening Skills.

    So I started a thread on Listening:


    http://www.sexualforums.com/29290-encouraging-wife-vent-listening-skills.html#post277303



    To get more sex form your wife, in addtion to Listening and copmliments, there is



    To Build more Love for more Sex, try COUPLE, 10th post down.


    http://www.sexualforums.com/11183-sad-=.html







    //
     
  7. daver

    daver New Member

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    First of all, I think you've made a huge mistake with the sister. The moment you first touched her, you committed yourself to a lifelong (or marriage-long) dependence on her discretion and trustworthiness... that is, if you still want to preserve your marriage, which it's clear that you do. But the presence of those attributes is certainly questionable in a woman who would do what she did to her own sister.

    Do you think any of your wife's friends are close confidantes of her? If what you're saying is 100% true (sorry, but none of us is immune from coloring the truth from time to time, even to our own selves), then perhaps you can approach one of them. Explain to the friend exactly what you've explained here (editing out the sister stuff, of course), and appeal to her for help. Ask her to be your confidante, or even your spy, letting her know it's for a good cause - the preservation of your marriage, to the woman for whom you still have the greatest love and affection. If this friend doesn't already have the answer for you, perhaps she can tease it out of your wife.
     
  8. htoad

    htoad Active Member

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    I do not think she is thinking about joining the widows club. :) However, I do see something of a flag, in that these two women are likely ones whose view are that sexual activity is a thing of the past - and in fact they might have even said things to her that have caused her to question why she should still be sexually active at her age.

    My wife has a female cousin slightly older than her, that wants to be friendlier with her, but wife avoids her, because this cousin's attitude is "If you aren't having anyone kids, you don't need to be spending time on sex". She is not in a relationship and has subtly tried to influence Bunnie towards her views, but fortunately Bunnie does not want any part of that - and Bunnie would rather spend time with her friends who, even in their 50's and 60's, still see sex as a good thing.

    I am not saying her widowed friends are the only reason for her change, but I do see the possibility that it might be a factor.
     
  9. cbrmale

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    I don't know about the change: my wife and I are in our fifties and are having great sex. I'm inclined to think pre-menopausal or menopausal drop in testosterone would reduce a woman's sex drive, but that wouldn't explain the suddenness and the completeness of the end of sex (many women who love their husbands will sometimes have sex with their husbands, even if they aren't in the mood). Normally, when someone writes a story like this, I'm inclined to comment that all the communication and listening skills in the world generally don't help, but in this case it's 35 years of marriage.

    We all know that most marriages, especially long-term ones, surivive affairs, but maybe not with close relatives like sisters-in-law. I also understand that two sexless years would build up great tensions that masturbation cannot hope to dissapate.

    I once got my wife from being sexually timid and unadventurous to another space by hinting that sexual frustration can result in affairs, and she got the message. This is clearly where you're headed, so maybe a good heart-to-heart to clear the air as regards your obvious sexual frustration might help (but don't mention the sister, I made my admission as something hypothetical).

    A recent study attempted to quantify the psychological benefits of partnered sex. A number of men and women were given a stressful task: public speaking. Some were told to masturbate the day before, some to have oral sex with their partner, and some to have intercourse. Those who had intercourse were much less stressed: lower blood pressure, slower heart rate and less skin moisture, than either masturbation or oral sex. So that's what we are, we are sexual, and we accumulate sexual tension which can be relieved by intercourse.
     
  10. VanGogh

    VanGogh New Member

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    I hope you see from my earlier posts that I kind of said that.

    While I appreciate the information, I don't know whether knowing that makes me feel better or worse.

    --- --- ---

    I continue to try to talk about it, but nothing's getting through the wall. I set up an appointment at a marriage counselor and I'm going by myself. I talked to my own sister about this situation and she called it "unnatural." I couldn't agree more. I haven't been "angry" about it, but I'm getting there.
     
  11. DarkJewel

    DarkJewel New Member

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    I'll let ya know
    I fully agree with Cbrmale...you need to tell your wife you love her,but that going without sex for long periods of time can lead to affairs and see if that makes a difference at all.
    At this point nothing else is working so what have you really got to lose?

    I certainly understand your sexual frustration...no doubt.I could forgive an affair,but not if it was with my own sister.So I'm glad you didn't go through with it.That might be unforgivable...
     
  12. cbrmale

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    VanGogh,
    In our society we are still shaking off the shackles of sexual repression; especially amongst older age groups such as you or your wife. We all know that sex feels nice and brings us closer to our partners, but we still tend to underestimate that one of the basic primal drives of men and women is to have intercourse in order to ensure the next generation. It's what we are, we are sexual, and while that may not help you with your current predicament, I hope that you can use this to enlighten your wife, and explain to her that partnered sex will relieve a lot of your tensions and anguish.

    Partnered intercourse leads to a boost in testosterone for both men and women, but especially for women. Testosterone is the basic sex-drive hormone. This means that the more sex we have, the higher our sex drives, the more sex we desire, the more sex we have, and so on. Or the converse: denial of sex depletes our sex drive. So, if one can break a dry spell, their own sex drive recovers as well.

    I know that there have been times in our marriage when my wife's sex drive was low, but we still had regular sex because she loved me. There were times due to a long-term illness that my sex drive was very low, but we still had regular sex because I loved my wife. And even though I didn't have any sex drive, I enjoyed the closeness and pleasure of sex every single time. We don't need a raging libido to enjoy sex and all that accompanies it, so having been in the low sex drive place, I can't understand why individuals would deny sex when it's readily available.
     
  13. daver

    daver New Member

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    No, actually, I don't see that you said that. I see only that you recognize it as a serious risk. Nothing you wrote indicates to me that you've made any solemn vow to yourself never to let anything happen with the sister. I apologize if I've missed something.
     
  14. VanGogh

    VanGogh New Member

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    Well... I finally got my answer about 5 hours ago and my head is spinning. After two years of discussions, spats, begging, being ignored, worry, more discussions, more spats, then arguments, yelling, demanding she see a doctor, fights, talking - then more talking -then more talking, hitting a local bar alone night after night from time to time, more spats, then finally a meeting with a marriage counselor (alone) who encouraged me to either get her to come with me or "ratchet it up a notch" about getting an answer... after two years she finally told me. She had an affair with a 24-year-old guy she worked with.

    So, after all this, it comes down to the most basic thing. They went on about four months. I can't believe I didn't know. She told me "you're not as aware and clever as you think." Oh, but no... it's not just "the affair." Oh, no. There's more to it. It's not just shame, or disgust in oneself, or anything like that that caused her to stop having sex with me. It ends up that she didn't cut me off when she started having sex with him... she stopped having sex with me when their thing ended, not when it began. She told me that after it ended between them because he changed jobs and moved, she tried really hard for us to get back where we were, but she couldn't have sex with me without thinking about him. I asked her if she was in love with the guy and she said, "Of course not. How ridiculous." So I started pounding on this thing about why she was obsessing after it was over.

    Long story short... I could go into the two hours of yelling, but it wouldn't help anyone here... so, long story short, my wife has discovered and has now revealed to me that, in so many words, she's a f-ing size queen. Ends up the guy was, as she put it, "like a porn star's bigger brother" and she, as she also put it, "discovered a whole new layer about myself that I didn't know existed." Then she followed it up with, "I'm sorry. I can't help it." Oh, yeah. That helps. So, for the 53 years of my life, I've been told that "oh, it doesn't really matter to women... that's just a guy myth." And for many that might be true, but now the woman I've spent my entire adult life with and had children with and is the grandmother of four now reveals that she hasn't not been having sex with me for the past two years because our marriage is bad or that we're getting older or she has some physical illness. Oh, nooooooo. It's because she found out that when she looks at what's hanging off the front of me that it doesn't excite her... it only makes her feel "sorry" I guess. Hey, I'm no great physical catch generally, but I'm in better shape than most and I'm average-plus down there, and it's never been an issue before. She's never said a word about this kind of thing in all our years. But, as I'm writing this I'm thinking how absurd it is for me to even think that this is about that. It's about her and her "newly discovered" aberrant obsession.

    I made her give me details about some things. After a while, she started actually volunteering information, and I think she was actually getting excited telling me about it. When that thought came to mind, I called her some names and really went off... especially when she told me in painstaking detail about her "holy crap" moment the first time they were together and she saw him for the first time. She told me twice how she made this comment to him "you should have been a logger... seeing how you're carrying one around with you." Yeah... real funny. But I made her tell me some things I probably wish I hadn't heard now, and made her go into details about what they did, where, when, how she got around me finding out, anybody else finding out. I even made her tell me about positions, what he did to her, what she did to him... all that. Most of it I wish I hadn't heard. But, like I said, once she got started, it really wasn't that tough to get her to tell me and I guess I just wanted to have more to get madder about.

    So, now, all those looks, all those glances she's given me when I've gotten out of the shower or getting dressed in the morning or the like over the past couple of years now have taken on a whole new meaning. Everything from her shifting her eyes to every little sound she makes is colored differently from before. How in the hell am I supposed to EVER think that our life is going to be like it once was? How can I EVER believe I'll ever be able to share a bed with her again... or that I would ever even want to? And it's not because she was with another guy. I could get past that over time. It's because of her attitude about "Mr. Big". I called her every name in the book last night, and the pictures of her with him are still going through my head. Oh, I really liked the one she thought was really funny, where she met up with him and said, "Here we are again... just the three of us." I listened to all this last night and the phrase "I don't believe this is happening" is still going through my head. I told her that I'm probably going to move out for a while and she said, "please don't. If you move out, you might not come back." Ya think??? Oh, here's a real kicker... she "confided" in a friend about her affair and told her everything. This is a woman who has been to my house dozens of times in the past couple of years. So, there we are standing in my kitchen with her knowing my wife has been f-ing this other guy, and I'm sure she's told her all about what it's like to be with a guy the size of a.... hmmm, how did she put it... oh yes... quote: "you know those 1-pound jimmy dean sausage packages I use for breakfast?" "yeah" "well... if you took two of those and put them end to end... ... ... well, a bit more than that." Thanks. Now I'll never be able to eat breakfast again either. s-l-u-t.

    So here it is 5 hours later. She's sitting in her bedroom, I'm in mine and I realize that all our friends are her friends, we live where we do because it was her choice... a lot of stuff. I've been wordsmithing this for an hour and realize I really haven't made much sense... and I have to be on a plane in four hours because I'm working in southern Idaho for the next four weeks. I ran from the sister's advances when I realized I was weak enough to get myself into some real trouble. I'm glad I didn't know this when that was happening. I might have gone through with it... hey, and maybe I should have. Why the hell not? Doesn't seem to matter, huh? I'm calmer now than I was a few hours ago but my thoughts are still all over the place. The next month is going to be hell.
     
  15. SexyBeto

    SexyBeto New Member

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    This definitely has to be the worst thing a man has to go through, but now you know. This will probably have me thinking for the years to come, and I do hope everything works for you. :ugh
     
  16. daver

    daver New Member

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    Clearly your problem is more than just your wife having an illicit affair... the woman seems to have a mean streak that certainly wasn't evident in your initial posts. If everything you've written is true, you must feel you're living in a Dr. Jekyll & Mr. Hyde world. Truly the worst thing that can happen to a man is for the whole bedrock of his life to crumble like that.

    As for the sister, kindly disregard everything I previously wrote. At this point she may well be the best thing you've got going for you.
     
  17. DarkJewel

    DarkJewel New Member

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    I'll let ya know
    yeah,I agree with Daver...that is quite mean and cruel for her to rub it in and make you feel bad about yourself.And really cruel to make you wait two years to find out too!
    God,how awful you went without sex for two whole years because of that...

    I actually prefer average to smaller penises.My husband is 8 inches and he definitely hurts me at times.6 inches seems more like the perfect size for me and it doesn't hurt,just feels good.
    Maybe it is not your penis that is the problem,maybe her vagina is just too loose? Sure she wouldn't like hearing that,but at this point if I were you,not sure I'd care.

    So sorry!!
     
  18. cbrmale

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    Affairs are common enough, more than half of married men and almost half of married women will have a least one affair. It isn't surprising you didn't know either; a friend of mine's husband had an affair for 10 to 20 years, and she didn't know until very recently!

    I'm sorry about the size problem, and I'm afraid there's a lot of contradictions about size. Does size matter? Yes it does, absolutely. Do women marry men on the basis of their cock size, generally measured in terms of girth? No, not normally. But, unfortunately, size does matter, and only a small number of men have this asset, so to a large extent a lot of women don't know what they're missing until it comes along. For some, the guy attached to it is enough to put them off; and for some the guy attached is pretty good and knows how to use it. And, probably as the thickest man on this forum, I have seen the true impact of size.

    I've had affairs; I've had married women and couples who have heard of those affairs chase me because of my size; I've had married women who have told me that sex with their husbands will never be the same again. Those women didn't seem spiteful or shallow to me, and their comments were made with truthful honesty. It's not abberant behaviour because I've seen it too many times, from my younger years right until today. Although those married women did go back to their husbands, and as far as I know they continued to have sex.

    I'm really sorry for you, and I'm inclined to echo the comment above and consider her sister. You haven't go much to lose. Possibly she won't have sex with you again, and if she does she may not enjoy it, and almost certainly you will be thinking that she's not enjoying sex with you even if she is. So, you have little to lose, and you could gain the best sexual years of your life.
     
  19. Texas_Red

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    [​IMG]
    Holy fucking shit dude. I am so sorry to hear this. [​IMG]

    She's being a complete bitch about this. The things she's saying and the way she's saying them do not convey an ounce of care which to me means she doesn't even regret it, and that is completely unforgivable.

    As for the friends and such, there isn't much you can do about it. Maybe give them all a big "fuck you" message for being that way. I could never be party to a cheater. If I was also good friends with the spouse it would immediately become an issue of "break it off and fess up, or I fess up for you". Being party to cheating makes you as low as the cheater in my book.

    I don't know if this will be reconcilable or not, but it sounds like not. If not, then the only thing to do is start discussing divorce. I wouldn't talk to the sister until things are squared though.

    You've made plenty of sense man. And running from the sister's advances only whows that you're the better person. You knew it was wrong, and while it physically felt right, logic and ethics won out. At this point you are only able to say "Why shouldn't I have" because you know what you know, which makes that irrelevant. You did the right thing. That is what matters.

    As I said before, figure things out, see if it can be reconciled or not, and go from there. Don't mess with the sister until things are done, if you go the divorce route. I wouldn't even talk to her during.

    Why does most of your post come off as strutting and preening?
     
  20. cbrmale

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    Because I was honest. I really feel sorry for him because he's my age and I'm having the best sex of my life, and looking forward to a lot more to come. Certain size combinations are very rare, and many women will not come across them in their lifetimes. Or, if they do, they may come across the man who thinks his size is the be-all of sex, and doesn't much care for his partner's well being. It's quite clear that there are some women who are really, really into size, they're called size queens and they wear that badge with pride, and once this happens then smaller doesn't do it for them anymore.

    I don't know how it feels; but we know the outer third of the vagina is the most sensitive, therefore it makes sense that thicker will stretch and stimulate this sensitive part. I also know from my experiences that some women get off on the visual and the tactile: they like to hold it, touch it, try to do oral sex on it. They're into size well before you've got anywhere near penetration. In this case it's like some men's fixation for big breasts: visually appealing and nice to play with.

    Whatever the reason: sensual or psychological or both, it happens. From my anecdotal experience, it's more likely to happen with a woman who's had a lot of sex or a lot of partners. It's never happened to me with a woman who's not had much sex or not had many partners.
     
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