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Discussion in 'The Lounge' started by AnonymousOne, Aug 5, 2008.
This should be interesting ... :ugh
translation: we're screwed.
Unfortunately, the Bush administration has pushed the economy very close to the tipping point. I'm not sure if Bush realizes that the government has a fixed income. They send 4 trillion dollars overseas, then cuts taxes for the rich saying that it will stimulate the economy. I wish someone would explain to him that the money sent overseas has to come from somewhere (ie taxes.)
Tax cuts for the rich do stimulate the economy temporarily, but you can't jump start an economy that owes 4 trillion dollars. Everyone who voted for Bush: I don't want to hear any bitching when President Obama raises taxes, it was Bush who spent the money.
personally, most of my friends and family, dem, rep, et. al. all agree that we're screwed no matter who wins in sept. I heard that in a recent study that adjusted for inflation, were actually in a worse spot right now than during the Great Depression.
I'm pleased to announce that I support anarchy as a result of the magnitude of fuckups that have occurred in the last 8 years.
Umm actually .... there are greater causes at work in the current mess than the bush administration.
You need to go back to Greenspan as the Fed Chair. Now, this is a bit academic so try and follow me, I hope not to get too complex.
For years, during the 90s the Federal Reserve kept the interest rates extremely low in the US, so low in fact that there was a glut in the real estate market. With the cost of loanable funds so cheap because the Fed kept flooding the market with money, there was no reason for these people not to go for their loans.
So problem 1 The fed fucks up and puts too much money in the economy, destabilizing the market for loanable funds.
Problem 2, the Community Reinvestment Act, the CRA forces banks to give loans to high-risk clients including people that have damn near no chance of paying the loan back, still the US government puts a gun to the bank's head and tell them to hop, ergo, you have loans that are simply going to go bad on you.
Problem 3, some banks went nuts playing on the real estate craze. They've over extended themselves and as a result are getting hosed by the market where there was too much investment in real estate.
Problem 4, the trading of mortgages as investments and packaging them in funds is simply a bad fucking idea. I think the banks and investors are learning this one the hard way. This is especially foolish when combined with a market bubble in real estate that will burst.
Now, this is not to defend the bush administration, I think they are a wonderful example of a catastrophic fuckup, but don't blame them for this. Blame the Fed and the US Gov't and foolish morons who are living beyond their means (2nd and 3rd mortgages).
And actually, you want to know the best way to raise gov't revenue? Get rid of the income tax and go to a flat national sales tax. Actually Obama's tax raises have nothing to do with paying off the debt and everything to do with social engineering.
On an aside, and I swear someone will yell at me for this, his "oil company windfall" tax will drive the price of gas up, the production of gas down, and the desire to consume it up, essentially creating a massive shortage of the good. His plan is to tax them, so that he can give it back to us, so we can buy gas .... the unintended consequence of that is that it creates an incentive NOT to produce fuel.
Hell Exxon paid 40 Billion in taxes internationally, and only reported a 11 Billion profit internationally, actually the US contributed only about 2.8 billion of that profit. So who is taxing and fucking whom?
Not true. And even with the fuckups, the mortgage failure rate is still DRASTICALLY Lower than it was in the 1970s.
I basically just want to live in a box and read, and weave, and ride my bike until the US explodes. Hopefully the economy won't hurt that to much, for the time being. It hasn't really affected me much, but then, I live in my own world.
Ahhhh so you want to live in Switzerland... :lol
I'm far from being an economist and if president would most likely do worse than Bush has. Well..... *wrinkles nose* maybe not worse, but.... Don't come down too hard on me, A1, I'm just looking at the U.S. economy like I would if it was my own business. (Mine is a bit smaller, but is about the same in profitability.) I know we didn't get into this predicament by any one thing we did or didn't do, so it's likely not going to be resolved by any one change either. But here's one change that would make a world of difference:
U.S. Energy Policy. I live in an area rich in fossil fuels -- oil, coal, natural gas, and coal bed methane. I think I read once that there's enough coal in Wyoming alone to provide energy for the whole world for over a hundred years. (It's not all economically available with current conditions and technology, but it's there.) That's just in Wyoming. One of the largest, if not THE largest, oil reserves in the U.S. was recently discovered in North Dakota. We have huge oil reserves off our coasts and in Alaska. Hell, it's all over the country if we drill deep enough. Yet 75% of the oil used in the U.S. is purchased from other countries. That's a gigantic number of U.S. dollars going to the Middle East (The LAST place we should be spending money). Think about it, and then think what that money would do for our economy if it stayed here.
The U.S. has no energy policy. It's being run like a business with no management. In my neck of the woods coal bed methane drilling has gone from a booming industry to nearly nothing because sage grouse numbers *seem to be* declining. No one knows WHY their numbers are declining (if they indeed are), so it's blamed on drilling activity. (It's still legal to hunt them, incidentally, not that many do. They don't taste good enough to eat and are too dumb to be challenging.) If their population continues to dwindle it could even put a stop to ranching in some areas. So it's the "environmentalists", lawmakers and courts left to decide, and so far they haven't been making many good decisions for the economy, businesses and the people.
Taxes -- I don't know anything about taxes on oil, gas or electric generation, but the major cost in a ton of coal here is for taxes. The cost to purchase the land, buy and maintain the huge mining equipment, build storage facilities and hire people to mine it and restore the land afterwards -- all that combined costs less than the taxes paid to the government for the privilege of mining it. And we wonder why we import our oil? And we want to tax them MORE?
Incidentally, a Senate bill introduced by Senator Obama, if passed as he proposed it, would halt overseas shipment of coal. Oh, he's a smart cookie! *rolls eyes*
*Climbs off my soap box*
Kind of. KY is a lot like Switzerland I'm told. Not that I want to live in KY forever. :lol
Spot on. I would argue that we have a "energy policy" that has been dictated by the environmental movement. Which is essentially, you better not touch anything or we'll go nuts and march on Washington and they couch their arguments in terms that make people feel guilty for consuming fossil fuels.
It's time to tell the green movement where to stick it. I love mountains and trees, I'm an avid hiker, but I also know that as of right now, we don't have the technology to get by without fossil fuels. Let the market provide goods as people want them. People will react to market forces (Ex. Look at the number of people buying mopeds and scooters to get to/from work with).
Nah ... you don't have the Alps in your backyard.
The other thing we need is to get rid of income tax entirely. Flat National Sales tax. There are no loopholes, and no one can dodge the tax. Hell we could even get rid of 90% of the IRS.