Toxic masculinity. you decide.

Discussion in 'Sex and Relationships' started by 10_3XL, Mar 25, 2016.

?

Is there such a thing as "toxic masculinity?"

  1. Yes

    8 vote(s)
    61.5%
  2. No

    2 vote(s)
    15.4%
  3. Don't care

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  4. Does it matter?

    3 vote(s)
    23.1%
  1. 10_3XL

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    I'll just leave this here for everyone's contemplation. I was inspired to share this after perusal of a recent back-and-forth in another thread. (Well, thread derailment, but whatever.)

    I'm pretty sure if you read my posts, you already know or can guess my thoughts/opinions on the subject.
     
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  2. Mikey22

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    10-3XL I listen'd to it 3 times,trying to find something I've heard to add to it. The only thing,I could think of is 2nd. Place is all ways the first one to loose. But I think they got it covered.
     
    #2 Mikey22, Mar 25, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2016
  3. SWOJLO

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    I just don't buy into that. Every time I listened to it I connected a little more. Sorry 10-3xl. Probably makes me something, but I don't know that I feel bad about it.
     
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  4. 10_3XL

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    Most of those phrases are seemingly innocuous, but can have really damaging effects. Not on everyone, but on enough people that it presents a real problem in my eyes. They perpetuate the Man > Woman mindset. They instill a sense that if a boy/man does anything that has been labelled as feminine, that he is somehow lesser than everyone else. That he is wrong. That he isn't a man. That he is undeserving of love, happiness, and a full life. Things like "Are you Gay?" serve to perpetuate the thinking that homosexuality is Wrong...

    I know many people won't see that or be able to understand that angle. That's fine and it doesn't make you wrong or a Bad Person. I can't even think of anything it really does say about you, other than that maybe you haven't put very extensive thought to the matter. Or maybe it's is only really telling that I was raised primarily by a small group of strong-minded/strong-willed feminist women, who instilled their values of equality and fairness for all people into who I am. Maybe it says absolutely fuckin' nothing.

    There's nothing wrong with being a traditional "masculine" Man, just as there is nothing wrong with being a non-traditional "feminine" Man if that is what is the Right Thing for you.

    What's important is that we don't perpetuate harmful stereotypes and gender roles. What's important is that we are supportive and nurturing of every individual, so that they can achieve the most in their lives.
     
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  5. SWOJLO

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    Well said 3xl but I need to stay true to who I am.
     
  6. 10_3XL

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    That's rather short-sighted, Barent. Maybe, rather than it being all feminism's fault, it's a result of people not knowing how to deal with removal of what - for the longest time - was de facto privilege. The suicide rate isn't skyrocketing in all middle-aged men. It's skyrocketing in middle-aged White men. Why? Because all of that Male/White Privilege is getting taken away and the system is beginning to take on a more balanced shape for everyone. (The vlogger even talks about this phenomenon in that video you shared in your Bisexuality thread, Barent. So, you and I both know there are hard numbers to prove this.) It can't all be, nor should it be, blamed on feministic ideology. To do so is ignorance of what feminism is. You are falling into the common misconception that Feminism = Misandry, which is not true.

    I can't stress enough that feminism isn't about making men into 2nd class citizens, nor has it attempted to "eliminate the role of the father..." It's not about man-hating or shaming someone for their gender. Feminism is about equality for all people. Simply because you've run into a few that take the ideology to the extreme, you shouldn't paint all with the same brush.

    Every group has the extremists and the radicals that push things too far, but that doesn't mean that those people and their approach is the general rule. It would be like me condemning all Christians that I meet, simply because one Christian guy I knew was also an anti-Semitic zealot. Or condemning all Blacks because one Black guy once shot and killed a White person. Or condemning all police officers because a few cops committed heinous abuses of power/authority.

    You can see how ridiculous it is when you apply that logic (the act of one = the act of all) to groups other than feminists/non-feminists.

    I pose this to you: I'm a feminist - what does that mean?
     
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  7. 10_3XL

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    Which is perfectly fine. I didn't post this to force people to see my way, just to provoke thought and spark discussion on a subject that is typically not even mentioned.

    The whole point (to me) of that video and similar articles/videos/&c is about being able to be true to yourself - as you are doing - without suffering unnecessarily for it.
     
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  8. Barent

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    I took my post down because I don't think most people today really agree with me. Feminism as we have come to know it, is the worst thing that has ever seeped in to our culture. Maybe a different type would be OK, but from what I have seen, what we have just stinks. If you want statistics about the number of broken homes, mental illness, suicide rates, people in prison, dropout rates, kids who are still living at home well into their late 20's and 30's, and a lot more, they're easy to find. I cannot prove that the existence of feminism has contributed to these things, but it is my opinion that this is what happened.

    I'm sorry but a middle-aged white man who has worked and provided for himself, and possibly loved ones, is not equal to a welfare recipient, of any color or age, but you'd never know that from feminist rhetoric.

    If things have been getting better, because of feminism, then I can scarcely see how our ancestors survived far worse, without committing mass suicide.

    I know that people won't agree with me, but hey it's only my opinion.
     
    #8 Barent, Mar 26, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2016
  9. 10_3XL

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    Worse than sexism, racism, homophobia, xenophobia, or prejudice against the mentally ill? Saying feminism is the worst thing is pretty hyperbolic, don't you think?

    As for the increased "broken" homes, mental illness, suicide rates, &c -- how much of that is simply an illusion of increase due to the fact that reporting is better, knowledge has increased, and awareness has increased. Is it really that there are more mentally ill people Now than there were Then, or is it just that we now have more knowledge &c on the topic and so it is more accurately identified? Are these homes really "broken" or are they simply separated (which does not necessarily translate to a negative thing)? Things like that... I don't think they can be blamed on a group of people or an ideology like feminism.

    As to the dropout rates, incarceration numbers, and people living at home later in life -- how much of that is simply due to a societal shift. Kids dropping out because the education system is fucked. People being incarcerated because our judicial/legal system is outdated and overly punitive rather than reformative. The economy tanking so people rely on additional income (i.e. their parents') to be able to make it. Again, I don't think that those things can be blamed on a group of people or an ideology like feminism.

    Really, from this and some of your past posts elsewhere, it seems to me like you are someone who hasn't truly met very many feminists (or, at least, not that you were aware of) and have only run into/seen the poor examples of the group. Allow me to apologize on behalf of those feminists that don't push it into the realms of misandry.
     
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  10. Barent

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    No matrilineal society ever advanced beyond the Stone Age. That's right, we'd have nothing more advanced than primitive tribal living, if not for the patriarchal systems that evolved over tens of thousands of years.

    People have been brainwashed by a highly sophisticated propaganda campaign, for the past 40 years.
     
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  11. Mr_Blue

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    We got where we are largely by way of murderous brutality so I'm not entirely proud of human male history. I think we are in a position to transcend that now aren't we?
     
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  12. Ed69

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    I too grew up in a home full of strong willed women,mom and four sisters.I was taught to cook,clean and do basic repairs on clothes for myself.I was also taught that it was ok to have feelings and show them.I learned all the manly stuff from dad&granddad,hunting,fishing,car repair etc....Then the day came that I had to kill a stray cat with an advanced case of mange,its skin literaly sliding off and delirious.After I put the shovel away I sat on the steps to our front porch and puked my guts up and started crying about the cats horrible end.Guess who came out to mock me with "Look at the big bad hunter crying"my mother the one who taught me it was ok for a male to cry.I have never fully trusted her again.
     
    #12 Ed69, Mar 26, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2016
  13. Barent

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    I learned at a very young age, when I first started working full time, what affirmative action for women and others would do, combined with feminism that undermines men. We are now in last place in the industrial world for health care, small nations are surpassing our educational levels, the country's political parties are falling apart, religion is still controlling our minds and laws to a significant degree, and we have people saying that things are better than before radical feminism became established. I'm OK, I did what I had to do to survive, with no help, but I pity the future generations that are being ruined by this feminist philosophy which destroys half of the foundation of what a stable society needs: The role of men.
     
    #13 Barent, Mar 26, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2016
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  14. 10_3XL

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    Using that thinking, though, then you can equally blame the Civil Rights movement or the LGBTQ Rights movement for the "collapse" of our society. Those have both been social movements taking place for roughly the same amount of time and in the same venues as feminism. Where you're saying that feminists and feminism are directly/indirectly causing all these troubles with our ideology, a racist could just as easily say that those seeking equal rights between races are causing those problems. A homophobic could blame homosexuals for all the ills of our society on the basis that they have been gaining equal rights as everyone else.

    Do you see where I'm coming from when I say the blaming of feminism for all these societal issues is just a little bit unfounded and unreasonable?

    And what is "the role of men" that you mentioned? What does that even mean? Why does there need to be a set definition of what is/isn't acceptable for a person to do/think based on their gender? Following that query -- what about those who are not cisgender? What does that mean for transexual men/women?

    Can you see why I'm so perplexed by your responses here? They fail to ring true or do anything other than bring up even more questions.
     
  15. Barent

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    The role of men used be the provider and head of the household, not 100% all of the time in every single home, but in general most of the time. It worked out pretty well for thousands of years until they became the ones blamed for everything that some women think they were cheated out of.

    There is no reason to hold back homosexuals from having rights, they are a small but vocal minority. with an agenda, that probably has a high degree of agreement with modern feminism, in many ways. As brought up in another thread recently, many of those who consider themselves bisexual are rapidly becoming alienated from gay society and organizations, due to the discrimination they'e experienced from them.

    I don't understand what cisgenger is, never heard the term before. Whatever it is, I don't think that it's very widespread.

    The men in that video are probably paid actors and models, acting as house-males for the anti-male, feminist agenda. I hope they enjoy their paychecks.

    Modern active Feminists only tolerate men who are emasculated, that's what it's come down to.

    There are anti-Feminist videos which make a lot of sense. I saw some by this woman (below) a few years ago. There a number of others by her, which are all very interesting.

     
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  16. Ed69

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    Yup!At 13 I was supposed to just suck it up and not cry over the cat I killed.What's more I was and am looked at as weak because I'm angry my mother signed off on me being sexually mutilated.
     
    #16 Ed69, Mar 26, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2016
  17. Barent

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    Can't take a knife to female baby genitals, oh noooooo!!! But for a boy, hey, foreskin is just a disposable piece of flesh, the surgery is free with health insurance, just cut it off to teach them early on what their role in life will be like.
     
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  18. 10_3XL

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    So what you're saying is that everyone here (including myself) who identifies as a feminist is anti-male, emasculated, and/or otherwise "pussified"? Oh, and that we approve of the sexual mutilation of men? That we are the cause of society's crash? Basically: That the world would be a better place if the Men were Men and the Women ran scared - serious Leviticus 15:19 and 1 Timothy 2:11-15 stuff.

    Because that's how it reads.

    Also, you again casually and unthinkingly blanket all "modern active Feminists" with your statement. Which is unfair and your claim is untrue. Not all feminists are man-haters. My mother, aunts, sisters, cousins, friends, and ex-girlfriends... none of them have the views you've claimed feminists to have (men are lesser, men are evil, et al.). As I've said before, you're doing exactly what bigots and hatemongers do to whatever group they have decided to target or use as a scapegoat.

    I honestly take exception to your view of feminism. As I've said, there are certain extreme examples that fit your description, but by no means is it the general rule. However, your view is limited, unfair, and not based in any discernible fact. Burden of proof falls on the accuser, right? So, prove to me that Feminism = Evil and I'll start believing it. Until then I'll continue to be a feminist and work towards the equality of all peoples; not only Men.
     
  19. Barent

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    You are not working towards the equality of all people unless you understand that men are the ones with the least rights in life, compared to women. If that were the case, you would not identify with the feminist movement, which cares nothing about equality but only how women can further take what rightfully belongs to men,
     
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  20. Chubbyslut25

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    Absolutely there is toxic masculinity. As the commenters in this thread have pointed out, there is such a thing as toxic femininity also! The moment one gender gets stuck on the idea that "we wouldn't be where we are without X" is the moment I stop listening. Both men and women have contributed greatly to the progression (or lack of progression) in society. Women haven't generally committed the same heinous crimes as men, in the name of power and progress but we are not without fault.

    For the record, nice guys don't finish last. They are what makes the world go round! I don't think this conversation would even be a thing if it weren't for good guys, trying very hard to help good women find that balance (that we know we can find!) between genders.
     
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