To the GOP

Discussion in 'The Lounge' started by ninja08hippie, Nov 10, 2012.

  1. ninja08hippie

    ninja08hippie Official SF Hugger
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    The last presidential election was disaster after disaster for the GOP, and it's very obvious why. Here are some things that the GOP needs to do if they want any hope of winning another election any time soon.

    Stop being racist, try to reach hispanics
    Changing voting laws at the last minute in an obvious attempt to stop legal immigrants from voting should not happen. Mexican immigrants in particular are socially conservative christians. They even blocked a gay rights bill in CA for a while before the courts overturned it. They should be your base, however they are not going to vote for a party that continually tells people that they are the problem. Hispanics will be a majority in this country very shortly.

    Get rid of elitism
    The people in the exit polls in both parties thought that rich people should pay a fairer share. Because of the internet, people know that some of the most profitable companies in the country like BoA, GM, Goldman Sachs, not only don't pay taxes, but get money back.

    Reverse your views on women
    Both of the anti-rape senate candidates lost, by landslides. Women outnumbered men in the voting booths, you have to embrace them.

    Stop bitching about the electoral college
    It's actually what helps keeps the GOP relevant. Red states turnout is higher than blue states turnout, because we know that our votes don't really matter. My state is about 75% blue, I didn't have to vote, but if the election was won by popular vote, I would have to vote because it would matter. Liberals outnumber conservatives by a very wide margin, if we all thought our votes mattered, we would be a much more progressive country.

    Reverse your views on science
    The young people are the future voters, and they are interacting with other people all over the world in real time on the web. They don't want to be labeled as stupid americans who don't even believe in evolution or climate change.

    Reverse your views on gays
    Same reason, young people don't want to be associated with what people overseas sees as a hate group.

    Use facts, not bullshit
    The party used to be able to run on ignorance, but with the internet, people are more informed than you think. Michelle Bachman said in a debate "where in the constitution does it say that we are not a christian nation?" She knew that it was spelled out clear as day in the first sentence of the Bill of Rights, but she had bet on the fact that her base didn't know that.

    Stop saying socialism
    People are looking up what socialism actually means. The Cold War is over, you can't equate socialism with the USSR anymore, now that people actually know what went on there, its quite obvious that the USSR was as far as you could get from actual socialism.

    Stop acting like you care and actually care
    The picture of Paul Ryan cleaning dishes in a soup kitchen would have worked ten years ago, but it doesn't work now. It took less than an hour for most of the country knew that all he actually did was show up, take the photo, and leave. Twitter and Facebook are your enemy if you act like that.
     
    #1 ninja08hippie, Nov 10, 2012
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2012
  2. backcheck64

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    But if they did all of those things, they'd be democrats.
     
  3. ninja08hippie

    ninja08hippie Official SF Hugger
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    Not really, the are losing because they have pushed so far to the extreme right. That strengthens their base states, but the swing states aren't really swinging anymore. Swing states are moderate, so if one party stays middle and the other goes extreme, they will stop swinging and it's happening. Pennslvania is not really a swing state anymore, it's a big state that the democrats can count mostly count on.

    They can still be sort conservative. They can still limit social safety nets, have insane gun laws, and inordinate military spending and spy programs, they just have to limit the crazy a little more.

    As Bill Clinton says, everything is about arithmetic. A balance between the parties has to go like this: Blue: Liberals and half the moderates, Red: Conservatives and half the moderates. What happened because of Bush, Akin, Palin... is Blue: Liberals and most of the moderates, Red: Conservatives.
     
    #3 ninja08hippie, Nov 10, 2012
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  4. EarthboundEnigma

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    So basically, get rid of the Tea Party and go back to being ACTUAL Republicans?
     
  5. Esozh

    Esozh New Member

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    I'll bite.

    The UN observers made the comment that they couldn't believe that we don't have voter ID laws, or at the very least, the indelible ink we see used oversees. Perhaps the GOP is xenophobic to a degree, but aside from that, we are ripe for voter fraud.
    UN election observers surprised no one needs an ID to vote in most states... | Opinion - Conservative

    The GOP is not the source of elitism. The "take it to the man" attitude always conjures up an image of Daddy Warbucks or Moneybags from Monopoly. Business leaders are rich, often white, people. The GOP didn't cause that. Furthermore, the Obama administration made news in allowing GE to get away without paying taxes. So that aspect is bipartisan.


    Science and gays. You mentioned Christianity as the Latino immigrants, and as Michelle Bachmans base. You're asking people to ignore their religion. And because of people abroad? Are you serious? Muslims make up over 1/3 of the world population. So at what rate does the Muslim and Christian religion support gays or science? Sharia law sure isn't in that. So the idea that our views should be shaped based off those of our foreign counterparts is both insulting and inaccurate.

    Both parties have spin doctors. Both parties lie. That's not unique to the GOP. The main stream media, aside from Fox News, is pretty much another branch of the Democrat party. just because its on TV, doesn't make it true.

    If you look at a geo political map of the country, non urban areas are almost always conservative. I have the opinion that those who have to be self reliant or die will always vote conservative. I still can't understand why the urban areas are so predominantly liberal.

    As far as caring, explain the difference between Bushs reaction to Katrina and Obamad reaction to Sandy? Because those are any different at all. You don't see it in the news, because that's bad press. You saw the oil spill in the news because it gave a huge visible reason to get rid of offshore drilling, and stigmatize drilling/hydro fracking in general. Neither party cares unless it furthers their own interests.

    Socialism is government ownership of companies. We saw that with the bank bail outs, and the auto bail out. So accurately, we saw a tinge of socialism. Aside from that, what we are developing in this country does not have a name, because its never been done successfully, and it won't succeed here. Socialism is the closest term to that. Government robs from the haves to give to the have nots, and incentivizes the have nots to not try. THAT is why people are getting pissed.

    I'm a libertarian. I served in the Army for 5 years. I've been all over the world, and to 46 US states. I support cutting the Defense Budget. I know it's rife with fraud and abuse.

    That all being said, the only things I care about is national security, no killing babies (pro life), and that our country remains free. I don't care about gay rights, I don't care about immigration, I don't care about people being different religions. I live my life for me and mine, and take care of us. My religion, my choices and views, are mine. And everyone is entitled to theirs.


    “Friend, you cannot legislate the poor into freedom by legislating the wealthy out of freedom. And what one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving. The government can’t give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody. And when half of the people get the idea they don’t have to work because the other half’s going to take care of them, and when the other half get the idea it does no good to work because somebody’s going to get what I work for. That, dear friend, is about the end of any nation.”
     
    #5 Esozh, Nov 10, 2012
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2012
  6. Esozh

    Esozh New Member

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    Now I'll put my soap box away. I fought for your right to hold your views, and I respect them, but I don't agree with them.
     
  7. Texas_Red

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    And yet this fraud we are ripe for accounts for a fraction of the issue. If we push for voter ID, it needs to be free. The current ideas on how to set up voter ID are very anti-poor, because it requires people to shell out for an ID they may very well not be able to afford.

    Actually, in a sense, the GOP did cause it. They continually allowed these rich shitbags to join and slowly morph the GOP into the pro-rich/anti-poor ignorance and hate machine it is today. The GOP once upon a time was all about less government in all ways. Now it's only about less government when it serves the corporate interests. Less government! Less government! (except when it comes to forcing religion (anti-gay/anti-abortion/government sanctioned religion) on everyone or helping everyone become prosperous). And the Obama admin apparently let one business get away with not paying taxes (any citation at all, because I never heard this)? That doesn't make it bipartisan in the least. Takes more than a single likened instance to do that.

     
    #7 Texas_Red, Nov 10, 2012
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  8. Texas_Red

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    I think Sandy mattered because your (apparently) boys Romney and Ryan were ready to axe FEMA and suddenly got quiet in the face of Sandy. Except for Romney staging faked relief efforts as photo ops, and refusing to give aid to NY for petty reasons. Some real stand up guys, those two. Katrina had a unified show of support. Sandy didn't. That's the difference, and it's a pretty fucking big one.

    Personally I wanted to see them all fail. That's the heart of Capitalism after all, survival of the fittest, and all these big companies went full retard. They should've been allowed to die. I think we would've temporarily had a much more dire economical situation, but all the companies that didn't go full retard would've been there to pick up the pieces, hire all the folks that lost work, and pick up all the customers the big names lost. But it didn't work out that way. No sense in crying about it now. As for socialism, we've always been mildly socialist. Not full on transition to Communism Socialist, just recognizing that being a decent fucking human being means being willing to help out your fellow man when he or she is in real need. Does the system get abused? Yeah. Doesn't mean we should just condemn everyone wholesale. Also does not at all "incentivize" the "have nots" to be lazy. That's an ignorant assertion. Right now I am a "have not." I am drawing unemployment and soon SNAP (food stamps here in Texas). But I've been doing my part, job hunting. I start a new job Monday. I have no interest in living off others for as long as I can. But I do appreciate having that safety net to keep me fed and a roof over my head in the mean time. Something tells me you've never really been in a dire living situation, having to fear loss of a place to live and steady food, not having family or friends to rely on to help you out. Because if you had, you'd not have such an ignorant view of social welfare in general. It's easy to condemn what you have no understanding of.

    I am a registered Libertarian as well. Would appear pretty clear that doesn't hold a lot of meaning, considering how differently we see things. I can definitely stand with you on cutting the defense budget, but I'd also like to see pay cuts for the higher ups, and pay increases for the guys on ground actually doing shit and risking their lives. Only seems fair for the people doing most of the work to make more money, and that goes for regular Joes too. The folks working "menial" jobs like 7-Eleven and McDonalds still play an important part, and the fact that we look down on them and pay them so little is quite telling.

    Aside from the pro-life part, we are in agreement. If people stopped being so interested in telling others how to live their personal lives, what personal choices to make, we might be better off.

    The thinking behind this entire quote is logically bankrupt and assumes some very incorrect things, but I've already pointed out what those are. No need to go over it again.
     
  9. Essene

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    I didn't read all of this; but socialism has many variants. Using it to describe a portion of a socioeconomic system is a fair way to use it.
     
  10. Texas_Red

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    Link and run? That's pretty weak. First link is a conservative rag, hardly worth taking the time to look at. May as well just link to Fox. Second link doesn't tell us anything we didn't already know about most corporations, they use every tax dodge possible to pay as little taxes as possible, some even getting money back. Same shitbag companies that are now crying a river and laying employees off or raising prices or reducing hours in revenge. Bunch of petty little fucking children. Wah wah, we didn't get our additional tax breaks, waaaaaahhhhhh!

    Esozh, if you're going to keep replying, please have some actual substance and logic. Otherwise you're wasting everyone's time.
     
  11. Esozh

    Esozh New Member

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    First, I didn't have time to write last night. And the second link was to show that GE wasn't the only company to not pay taxes under a Democrat President.

    Furthermore, as far as substance and logic is concerned, just because we don't agree doesn't mean opposing views can't equally have substance and logic.

    I agree that voter ID does need to be free. It's easy to implement. If someone is a registered voter at time of enactment, and they don't have an ID, then the state provides one free of cost. Easily accomplished.

    As to the GOP elitism, the rich white folk argument. The GOP allows anyone to join, same as the Democrats. Not everyone in either party agrees with everything the party mouth pieces say. Just because many companies happen to be run by white people - who are inherently rich, if they run large corporations - doesn't mean the GOP caused anything.

    Did the Democratic Party cause hate crimes? Are they the voice of all the threats on social media against Romney? Is the Democratic Party responsible for gang wars and high crime rates amongst young "minority" blacks in inter cities? Only insomuch as the GOP is responsible for rich white folks being in their membership roles. Look at Detroit, Philadelphia, Chicago, Cleveland. Cities with high crime rates that we hear about in the news regularly for their violence. Class warfare is not caused by, or a result of, the GOP.

    The Democratic Party has demonstrated that they will regularly use the tax code as an incentive to voters. "Vote for me, I'll give you this" The Obama Phone video is a great demonstration of that. The SEIU pays people to picket and rally, and transports them to the desired locations. When political expediency is gone, where are these people? The SEIU is back lobbying, and the rest are roaming the streets doing God knows what.
    SEIU paid anti-Romney protesters $11/hour in Cleveland VIDEO | The Daily Caller

    The Curious Case of the ?Obama Phone? Video -- Daily Intel

    From a religion aspect, you and I obviously have a very different view on Christianity. And that's fine - the Christian church as a whole cant agree on what they believe. However, having studied religion at various times, many Christiand consider the LDS a cult. Many gays will argue that the bible doesn't outright ban them, in the New Testament at least.

    Where does the GOP, at any level, force religion on anyone? We are constantly seeing places where people can't wear t shirts referencing God, or the Ten Commandmants being removed from court houses. Seperation of church and state does not mean elimination of church for the benefit of state. I don't know about you, but my polling place was in a church hall. As was my girlfriends, and my moms, and my mom lives in Southern California. The state clearly will use church when it benefits them.
    Oakland Zoo Ten Commandments Removed After Outcry From Atheist Groups (PHOTOS)


    You're clearly referencing anti gay legislation, anti abortion laws, etc. I don't care about gay rights. Stay out of my life, Ill stay out of yours as long as you aren't endangering others. I view abortion as murder. Contraceptives are too easy to access for us to have abortion. If that wasn't a baby, then why do people object to having to see a sonogram first? What's so difficult at looking at just a cluster of cells? We do that in elementary science.

    I grew up on a farm in rural Pennsylvania, Amish country. I know all about farm subsidies and dairy programs. My family has over 3,000 head of cattle and ships two semi trucks of milk a day, and still barely makes ends meet after the cost of doing business and taxes.

    You seem to assume I'm some rich white kid that grew up with a silver spoon in my mouth. I know hardship, I know difficulty. I've been on my own since I was 17, and had nothing when I started. There were days I slept under the stars because I had nowhere to stay, no job, no money. I made it on my own with no government hand outs, no help from the state, no nothing. My friends were there to pick me up when my family wouldn't. I ended up joining the army because it was just about my only option. I would go back in a heart beat if it was conducive to growing and raising a family, but deployments rip families apart.

    I look at our budget - or lack there of - and see how much we spend on social programs, on interest payments because we borrow to fund those social programs. Yes, there are those who are out of work and could use some help. Why not save in the good times to make it through the bad? I'm not saying you don't particularly, but my point is that our nations debt burden on a personal level and the "I have to have it now" attitude helps no one. Just because you can pay for it, doesn't mean you can afford it.

    When I got out of the army, I got divorced. My ex wife saw it coming, and she cleaned me out and left me with 3 months of unpaid bills and $300 to my name. I took a lien on my car to make ends meet, and still went through foreclosure. And still never got government help. 19 months later, I've worked 65-70 hours a week for the last 17 months. I'm debt free, my girlfriend us debt free aside from the mortgage, and I go to school full time too. All with no help from Uncle Sam. It can be done. It takes a lot of drive and determination, but it can be done. I've been through it and came out the other side.

    As far as the layoffs go, I would suggest reading into the tax code and more into the "affordable" care act. All big businesses have to provide "qualifying coverage". You're average health plan that fits qualifying coverage costs more than the $2,000 penalty. In order to retain quality employees, benefits need to be offered. So, efficiency has to be maximized to be able to pay for these qualifying health care plans. The tax breaks have nothing to do with the lay offs. Most of these layoffs have been a long time coming.

    Obama Administration Tells Contractors Facing Sequestration to Not Warn Employees About Potential Layoffs - Forbes

    I agree that our country needs to help each other. But we need to do if on a personal level, not because we're being forced to. You're vehemently against religious groups legislating their views - I'm vehemently against government telling me they can spend my money better and more efficiently than me.
     
  12. Mittimer

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    Romney's want to overturn Roe Vs Wade was a clear desire to enforce his own religious beliefs on other people. Seeing as Mr Romney was a flip flopper every other week, he did however, at one point in his flippy floppyness support employers refusing insurance coverage on contraception for "moral reasons". Again, that's forcing religious views on others.


    Gays don't endanger anyone.. Not any more then straights, bisexuals, transgenders, hermaphrodites, whites, blacks, Asians, etc. I'm sure you didn't mean that by this statement, but I feel the need to point out that anyone who feels that the gays "endanger" anyone should take their ignorance elsewhere.

    I too view abortion as murder. I am also pro choice. I will never impose my moral beliefs on another woman. Ever. All the men in politics who are trying to can sit on it and twirl. A woman's body is her choice.

    Now, contraceptives are too easy to access for us to have abortions you say? What in the event that the condom breaks? What in the event that they are that .1% that get pregnant while on birth control? What in the event that the mother who's trying to have a baby finds out that she has cancer? That if she continues with this pregnancy she will be denying herself 9 months of radiation or chemo that would save her life? What if continuing with the pregnancy will harm the baby or even kill it? Are you saying it's ok for that child to grow up without a mother because abortion is wrong and should be outlawed?

    What about rape? Is it "God's will" that she got pregnant against her own will? Is it wrong for her to not want to carry a child for 9 months conceived out of hatred and fear?

    What about incest? What about a brother and sister who do the deed, or a father who sleeps with his daughter? What about the child that could come out wrong? Come out with severe birth defects because of this incestuous act?

    What about severe birth defects? What about sonograms and tests that just look..wrong? Where the doctors see that there's only half a brain? What then? Keep the baby, let it suffer? Let it live a shitty life where it'll never be normal, never be able to work or communicate and always be reliant on others to take care of it? Yeah, that's it. Abortion is wrong, even when it could have spared that child a life of torment and utter hell. A life where that child will be reliant on the hand out's that the government gives it because it couldn't survive otherwise.


    If there is one thing that make me angry over anything else, it's those who say that abortion should be illegal. You're too fixated on your moral compass to see the reality of what that would mean.

    Tell me how you feel about abortion when your see your niece who only has half a brain never talk, never work, never marry. Struggle to walk up the stairs by herself or tell you that she's hungry. When you see how sad she is when her sisters get to go out with friends and bring kids over,when her 16th birthday consists of family only because no kid wants to be friends with the "freak". When you struggle to be able to understand what's going on in her head, what's hurting her, what's wrong but can't figure it out because she can't tell you.

    Tell me how you feel about abortion when your learn that you are the reason your mother will never have children again. Because when she was pregnant with you she found out that she had cervical cancer.That she waited 7 months of her pregnancy before taking you out at 3lbs and praying you would survive so that she could be treated. That by the time you were out, the only treatment was to remove everything. Live with the knowledge that while you're alive, your mom went into menopause at 28, lost the ability to ever conceive again, lost everything that makes her feel like a woman. Because yes, this was a much better option then aborting the fetus, saving her body and trying again when it's all over if medically able.


    I support everyone's right to their own opinions. The moment you fight to have something abolished for your own selfish moral reasons though, it's no longer simply your opinion. I am a woman morally opposed to abortion but I am also a woman who will fight until the day I die for every other woman's right to do with their bodies what they deem necessary.
     
    #13 Mittimer, Nov 11, 2012
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2012
  13. ninja08hippie

    ninja08hippie Official SF Hugger
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    They also have to stop with really stupid little things, people pick up on the little things. How could one believe that Romney would have championed American workers when he had all of his campaign buttons, hats, shirts... made in China? They just send all sorts of weird mixed messages like that.
     
  14. ninja08hippie

    ninja08hippie Official SF Hugger
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    I think people like Bill O'Reilly is actually one of the GOP's biggest enemies. Because all of the other news outlets are center-left, he is the only right face out there, which is a problem because he is so extreme. Fox is much further right than msnbc is left, and CNN is pretty much right in the center. These loudmouth extremists like O'Reilly or Rush Limbough represent the public face of the Republican party, and they push moderates away.
     
  15. Essene

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    My problem with people who think that using a religious background in decision making is wrong is this:

    Yes- it has been influential in their policy making decisions; but so do a lot of other facets. Just as violently as some conservatives hold to their principles- but liberals do the exact same thing. Denouncing something, short of breaking a "cardinal rule," as wrong without any leeway is usually the wrong response.

    Our life experiences coupled with what we have learned (nature and nurture) has created our senses of ethics. From our founding fathers, Greek political systems, and Abrahamic patriarchs long ago- we now have our government and our ethos. Setting religion aside- there are cultures who practice abortions and those that don't. I think it is fallacious to nay-say either side of almost any issue without logically weighing all facets of it (pros and cons).

    When acute indoctrination occurs, religions or ethical or political or all of them combined, the wrong steps are being taken to achieve the same goal. That goal is to help the human race in the United States of America. We can continuously squabble over which ideologies are correct or say that this party is trying to hinder humanity or that the other seek to destroy the human race; but the dichotomies that are present, while they may be irritating to navigate around/through at times, exist for a reason. Do not forget that.
     
  16. Esozh

    Esozh New Member

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    Mittimer, in the several examples of the "what's ifs" on abortion - in any of those instances would you shoot that baby after its been born? If the answer is no, then I can't say I would justify abortion. In cases of rape, incest, etc. I think those are exceptional, rare instances. Rare by comparison to voluntary, abortion as birth control, abortions. That said, in an ideal world, I'd like to see those kids be given up for adoption instead. Yes, I know that presents a whole new litany of issues, but that's still my preference.

    I'm not a woman, or a parent. I don't know the hardships of those with an unwanted child. I cannot fathom the pain it would be to be raped, both emotional and physical. But as a self admitted naive outsider, I also cannot understand how someone would be willing to have an abortion.

    The only situation that gives me pause is the pregnant cancer patient. I would think a mothers love would sacrifice herself for her child, but that's a huge moral issue I'm not going to touch.

    All laws are the legislation of morality. People can clearly agree that theft is wrong, fraud, murder, cheating on our spouses without permission. I fail to understand where there is such an argument about abortion. I just don't understand it.

    Also, I'm not saying gays endanger anyone. But I also get annoyed by the gay rights parade and African American month, BET television, etc. Imagine the outrage if there was a White Pride Parade, White Month, White Entertainment television. This double standard is racism as well.

    Ninja, I agree that the talking heads of the GOP are polarizing figures. Rush is the Bill Maher of the Republican Party. I would love to see more people like Colbert, who state the issues but don't take clear sides.
     
  17. Texas_Red

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    My comment about substance and logic has nothing to do with whether we agree or not. It has to do with you posting a reply of 2 links and nothing more. If you don't have time, then wait until you do. It will make for much better debate. It's quite possible to post with logic and substance and disagree.

    Wish the people in charge understood this.

     
  18. Texas_Red

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    My problem with these layoffs is that companies that have been and are posting profits are doing it. Profit. As in all bills paid, money free and clear. Layoffs from companies in this position have no excuse for laying folks off. Period. As for health care, i have always tended to eschew paying for it because 1) i rarely get sick, and when I do it's not life threatening, and 2) the cost is ridiculous. The copays, etc. are still way too damned high. Healthcare costs too much, period. Most of the places I've worked it would take $200+ a month out of my paychecks. For what I get paid, that's rather steep. Guess what people like myself end up doing instead? We go to free clinics that are tax funded among other things, or we go to the ER, and end up unable to pay for the care, which gets written off and becomes a tax write off for whatever company owns the debt. It gets passed right back onto the people. Wonderful, right?

    Some things can be handled on a personal level, yes. But when it comes to corporations, etc., no. If allowed to run free, they would run right over us. The government looking out for our best interest in these situations is necessary. A 100% free market will not work. It's a pipe dream, a fantasy. Business, while made up of people, are not inherently good. They are selfish, and have nothing but self interest at heart. Without the government, price fixing, false claims, faulty advertising, polluting, shitty work conditions, etc. would all make a hasty return.