The confederate flag

Discussion in 'The Lounge' started by Essene, Jun 23, 2015.

  1. Essene

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2011
    Messages:
    1,384
    Likes Received:
    75
    Gender:
    Male
    My Initial Feelings:

    From what has been explained to me and what I believe is that many people use it to represent racism. Many people use it to represent the underdog standing up for themselves and defending their way of life. That way of life went much farther than just slavery. Sure it was the straw which broke the camels back, but it wasn't the only cause (some can be read about here: http://www.confederateamericanpride.com/10causes.html). Keep in mind that, that text is the opinion given by someone much more learned on the subject than I am, but that it is still just an opinion.

    The flag, to many, is a symbol of anti-authority; one that stood against the tyranny of a system which they felt favored the northern states, but not the southern ones. Also keep in mind that the flag is just a piece of fabric. It is a symbol. It didn't enslave anyone. It didn't cause blood to be shed. It didn't rape, steal, etc people. It also didn't stand against part of a nation that was seen to be a bully. It was merely created. We associate meaning to it. Just like it didn't do any of the aforementioned things, it also won't be the bullet that a racist fires to pierce someones skin or the hateful speech someone may spew. It is an instrument which holds the meaning we ascribe to it and nothing more. Well.... besides it being a fabric made flag...

    This issue doesn't only concern conservatives. There are probably some liberals who also use the flag for that meaning.

    I am a fan of the flag. I used to have belt buckles and shirts with it on them. We shouldn't alter something current solely because of what people assume it, whatever 'it' may be, represents. It's a piece of history. Removing it serves to annoy people. If people didn't feel safe or felt that the confederate flag was a symbol of hatred meant to intimidate imagine how people will react if it's taken down. The flag won't commit a crime, but those who may have been biting their tongues, refraining from racist actions may be irritated enough to go through with whatever it was that they wanted to do. I'm not saying that we, as a country, should sympathize with racists or zealots of an unfavorable ideology/philosophy, but we should respect everyones system of beliefs even if it is a caustic one.

    Dameon, this is the United States of America and not Germany. What happened to blacks was bad, but what happened to the Jews, Gypsies, gays, etc was n times worse. Many were outright killed. Not only that, but we're two different countries. I would venture to say that the propinquity of the flag and the bad things people say it stands/stood for is more prominent with the Nazi flag. The Nazi Party flag only flew as the national flag for, what I believe to be, 2-3 years.
    (This was in response to what Dameon wrote which was "Flying the Confederate flag should be treason. It is illegal to possess or fly a Nazi flag in Germany. Why should this be any different?")

    (I didn't check this for errors. It's possible that misspelled something or broke a grammatical rule. Sue me.)

    ____________________________________

    My Second Response:

    (A response to https://medium.com/@thejohnprice/yes-you-re-a-racist-and-a-traitor-6c4bb12c5b63)

    If I have a piece of paper which reads "To This, As Such, We Own," and its reason for use was to enslave and oppress a group of people via dehumanizing them, removing them from their habitat, stripping them of their culture, and using them as the petrol to fuel a machine composed of hatred, bigotry, human bartering, etc... it would probably be correlated with slavery; specifically American slavery since it's such a hot topic..... AGAIN). First off slavery was not and never will be solely what has been deemed as a patriarchal southern culture; that is a southern American culture. It occurred in many places and was used by many people and cultures. Hopefully that is already understood. The saying was turned into a mantra. The mantra, then, evolved into the slogan of an area whose values, way of life, and economy were all being threatened. A war ensues. Attempted succession ensues. The war ends. The opposing side wins. That's a very poor anecdote of what occurred during the Civil War. Fast forward generations and epochs to arrive at a more contemporary time. That slogan began to propagate in its usage by the current day denizen of the losing area. They begin using it to stand for the valiance exhibited by their cultural ancestors. Perhaps they stretch the truth, don't know the truth, or plum completely ignore the truth. Now, the saying is used for what many would consider good. Stand up for what you believe in. Fight for what you believe in. Don't let what you believe in be compromised by others who may not share your ideology. The, once, statement which was used to represent bigotry and inhumane acts is now used to represent defending your belief system. What's the issue here? That it was originally used to embody tyranny by dint of slavery? How is that a justifiable reason to stop its usage, remove it from museums, etc? Words take on new meaning which are often contrary to their original meaning (like "bad" meaning "good," "sick," or "ill" meaning "dope." Neologisms frequently find their way into every day speech via colloquialisms. These esoteric and novel meanings may seem odd to others as they're more familiar with the more archaic meanings. It shouldn't always mean that their usage represents the prior usage of the word. Blah, blah, blah, etc. That's how I view the continued use of the confederate flag. It's merely an object. Its meaning can represent anything regardless of its historical meaning and usage. Sure it may upset some folklorists, as it has with this one, but that shouldn't carry any weight. Whether or not people incorrectly romanticize the Civil War era should be a non-issue. We're no longer in that epoch. We no longer have slaves (that I am aware of). Using that flag as an emblem for something that may not be entirely true is a non issue. At least it should be. I am not offended. I was as a child, but I obviously matured passed that. I can understand peoples uneasiness or anger associated with using the confederate flag. Racism is bad, slavery was bad, providing blacks freedom but not providing them with anything else was bad. Fine. But check that at the door when entering the abode of pragmatism. Even if it does represent a treasonous act so what? The colonies secceded from England to receive the aid of other countries and because they were treated unfairly (No taxation without representation). Succession isn't a new thing. So I don't see the reason to use that as a valid facet that will evoke anger. Even if todays usage of it meant that one was in favor of racism and bigotry... oh well. Those people obviously exist. They always will. The fact that they have a symbol doesn't change a thing. Removing it may cause more tension as trying to dictate what people can and can not do regularly causes tension. If seeing it causes an unsavory feeling just don't look at it (a brilliant retort from people who support public breastfeeding and showing vulgar things on billboards/commercials/etc). People argue the sentiment "a persons decision to fly that flag is their own and their right, but having a state sanction its preservation by flying it above the capitol is another," which is true. But, as I have responded previously, any nation is capable and is probably guilty of being built upon inhumane acts. History is filled with such tales. We still pledge allegiance to a flag, the current fifty starred thirteen striped flag, which historically represents both the good and the bad. I doubt it's possible to say with any level of actual confidence that the confederate flag only represents evil associated with that time period. I also doubt it's possible to assert with any level of actual confidence that the current American flag only stands for good; that it only stands for liberty, justice, valor, and purity. Even if you can find some argument which properly expunges all of the bad things which led to the US' freedom and countryhood- one should still think that our forefathers set into motion the actions which eventually yielded our current day nation. We have liberty, but at what cost? We have justice, but at what cost? We hear tales of our forefathers valor, but at what cost? The purity bit is intrinsically laughable so I won't associate a question to it. Our forefathers victories, as with many other nations, are usually thought of as being pyrrhic. We live in a nation that continuously attempts to police the world. We still pledge allegiance to the flag. We live in a nation where we provide aid to other nations in need yet we still have illiterate children. We still have children who starve and live in destitute areas. We still have homeless people. Yet, we still provide aid to other countries. We still intervene in other countrys spats and politicking. And we still I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. Seems a bit odd.

    Side note: the state song for Florida is Swanee River which at one time contained the lyrics "Oh, darkeys, how my heart grows weary." The song was also rumored to stand for romanticizing slavery (I wonder where I've recently read that exact wording...). I, to this day, don't have any issue with it. And yes- I know... I know...
     
    lucky5338 likes this.
  2. billytk1977

    Verified Gold Member

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2015
    Messages:
    956
    Likes Received:
    908
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Metropolitan
    People who only know tbe history of the south from school will see the flag as a symbol of racism and hatred, they will also see Abraham Lincoln as the president who freed the slaves. While i am not a fan of slavery at all, in fact i feel it is detestable, it happened. But it was not just the black people who were i, chains, there were other races in them too including American Indians.

    The south was fighting for a way of life, and yes slavery was a part of it, but that was not the boiling point. It was many other reasons.

    And speaking of Germany and what Hitler and the ss did to the jews, we seem to have forgotten that right here in the USA, the land of the free, we had consternation camps after pearl harbor and mid way. Also look,at the racism that still exist, black history month, specific funds set up for black people to go to school, get a job, get loans and or grants. Special privileges set up for Muslim, special programs for Mexican immigrants, and we say we dont use race as a determining factor.

    Me, i am an american. If you trace my ancestors i am here due to german, polish, french, Italian and native Americans having orgys.

    We have to stop judging people based on a skin tone or where their family names originated. We must base the value on tbe individual instead, hold the person accountable for their own actions and not what their family did or did no
     
  3. BlueCollar

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2014
    Messages:
    2,215
    Likes Received:
    3,235
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Eastern us
    All I took from that was a multi racial orgy happened at some point. I was like wait...what?!? :)
    Just keeping the mood light. Not poking fun.
     
    CLE32793, billytk1977 and djanalyst like this.
  4. porkchop4545

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2015
    Messages:
    447
    Likes Received:
    477
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Where ever I'm at
    I am from the south, the flag was created during the civil war south the northern troops and the southern troops could tell who was who since the flags looked alike and there was a lot of friendly fire. After the war people used it as a sign of racism and became the kkk, they made a much stronger statement with the use of the flag then what it was ment for. People remember the kkk and there hatred, so they remember the flag as a symbol of hatred. I have a tattoo of the flag on my arm. Heritage not hate is how it is for me.
     
    HeartsDesire likes this.
  5. sandwich

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2012
    Messages:
    2,614
    Likes Received:
    2,409
    Gender:
    Female
    Many northerners consider the flag to be offensive because they view it as reminiscent of slavery and racism. On the other hand, many southerners see the flag as representative of southern heritage in the general sense. I understand both sides of this.

    We give candy to little kids who knock on the door on Halloween. I wear a costume because it's more fun for the kids. What is missing is any motive or thought in my heart that resembles assembling for the purpose of celebrating the holiday according to its original 'evil' intent. Similarly, I imagine that for most southerners, the battle flag is not a celebration of the slavery of days gone by. I suppose what the citizens of southern states could do is weigh the perceived racism against the measure of southern pride and determine what is in the best interest of all.

    What do I think should be done about the flag? I can have an opinion, but otherwise it is none of my business. I am not a citizen of a state known for flying the flag. If I put aside the emotional responses of both sides so I may view this in a more objective manner, then I can only quote the tenth amendment...."The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

    This could snowball into a huge thing for most of the southern states, which have elements of the flag in their state flags, the most obvious being the Mississippi flag:


    image.jpg


    Personally, I have no interest in flying any flag because it's just one more exterior thing to have to maintain. For me, waking up and breathing the air outside while knowing at the same time there are those in the world who are subject to despotism tells me I live in freedom. I will always err on the side of freedom over restriction.
     
    glock27, The_E_in_CLE and BlueCollar like this.
  6. 10_3XL

    Verified Gold Member

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2014
    Messages:
    8,236
    Likes Received:
    9,546
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Idaho, USA
    The flag that most people associate with the Confederacy was the battle flag of Robert E. Lee’s Army of Northern Virginia. Not the Confederacy. The Confederate States had three different flags over the course of the war. The battle flag - believe it or not - was never one of them.

    It's funny that lots of people seem to get so divisive over that flag, when according to various surveys over half the US population don't care one way or the other.

    All the negative feelings surrounding the battle flag are largely products of its use by the KKK (also never their official banner), the Dixiecrat party, and other racist/segregationist/separatist groups.

    Should it be banned? Even if I'm against it and it causes me to associate bad things - I can't say that it should be. Doing so would be a Constitutional violation to a citizen's right to freedom of expression...


    First let me start by saying I agree that we need to stop judging people collectively and go on a case-by-case basis.

    Now having said that I'm about to start internet shouting...

    I've seen it here (sadly) and lots of other places -- where a majority group gets upset with a minority group for pointing out their status as a minority. The reactions tend to be hostile. They also tend to use really ignorant and incomplete logic in arriving at their opinions. "Well, how come BLACK people can say ________, and it's fine, but if WHITE people say _________, it's racist?" Probably because it fucking is racist. I also love seeing people cite crime statistics and such and then draw conclusions using race as a factor. Um... fucking HELLO?! If you look at income/education delineation within most US cities you'll notice that those lower on the spectrum tend to also be non-White. This is because of cultural holdover from slavery and Jim Crow days as well as errors in the system that grant privilege to the already-privileged but penalize those who are disenfranchised. It's a self-perpetuating cycle, and if nothing is done to break it then it will continue forever. "Non-Whites are naturally more violent/less intelligent/whatever, just look at these statistics!" Well, your statistics are bullshit because they don't take into account things like poverty and education levels, opportunities available, and/or they focus on a microcosm and not the Big Picture.

    I don't see how Black History Month is so terrible (and seriously, calling it racist?!). So the Whites/non-Blacks gave 'em one month of the year? Aren't there still 11 other months left for everyone else? If we lived in a place (and there aren't that many) where Whites were in the minority I'd be with you, but... uh... last I checked that's not the case.

    Special funds to specific minority groups shouldn't be viewed as racism. Look at a list of scholarships and you'll see that you can get money to go to college for just about any damn thing ever. Trust me, I know - my older sister got scholarships to pay for university for having blue eyes, being left-handed, writing an essay about why recycling is essential, and being from Washington...

    In any case, I don't think that W.A.S.Ps in the USA have any true justification to be indignant and huffy about Blacks/non-Whites/non-Christians getting (minor in the grand scheme of things) kickbacks. We've always been the majority here and to this day hold the power and privilege, we can afford to give out a few concessions. The majority of (White) people who cry out against stuff like scholarships based on race/creed, special observances specific to race/creed (i.e. Black History Month), and things of that nature tend to be veiling - either consciously or unconsciously - their own racist sentiments.

    I realize I'm going to get a lot of flak for these opinions of mine. Mostly because I've basically just called a lot of you ignorant, racist, and misguided. I'm sorry if you feel that way - but y'all need to open your minds on this and really think about it. Stop being willfully ignorant.
     
    CLE32793 likes this.
  7. CLE32793

    Verified Gold Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2015
    Messages:
    12,460
    Likes Received:
    21,051
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    Sunny Southeast

    It is a major part of our history and it should not be banned!
     
  8. backcheck64

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2010
    Messages:
    3,433
    Likes Received:
    1,040
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Missouri
    It's the flag of treason. Do we still fly the Nazi flag? Do we still fly the Union Jack? It's rooted in racism and cecession. It is un-American. It was a BAD part of history that should be forgotten. As such, any state flying that flag for any reason should be denied federal funds until the flag is gone.... and if you notice, those are the states that suck much more in federal funds that is contributed to the budget.
     
    10_3XL and Barent like this.
  9. lucky5338

    Verified Gold Member

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2014
    Messages:
    6,167
    Likes Received:
    9,265
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Scotland
    Regrettably banning a flag will not remove the bad feelings around the subject and on that basis there is little merit in trying to oblterate history. It would be so much better to improve the conditions of deprived people and thus remove the causes of resentment.
    It is so easy to throw stones at targetted groups and make symbolic gestures which achieve little other than to give some a feeling of self satisfaction and an excuse to scapegoat particular groups.

    Keep the flag and punish the criminals !
     
  10. Hottie6275

    Verified Gold Member

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2015
    Messages:
    1,406
    Likes Received:
    2,977
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Ohio
    Evil, bigotry, hatred are in the heart and mind. Not symbolically wrapped around a flag. I am from the north and went to a high school that proudly used the rebel and this flag for years as their mascot and symbol. We weren't haters or bigots. Over time, these have given way to newer, more politically correct images. The school has become more racially diverse over time, but it is still not filled with haters and are still called the Rebels.

    People who think making SC take down this flag because it represents a bygone era of slavery and hatred just don't know their history. In fact, in Charleston SC there is a Slave Museum that clearly shows how wrong slavery was. For a northener, it was eye opening. No movie, maybe 12 Years a Slave did, has ever portrayed slavery the way it appears to have been. But the flag means nothing. And as it has been pointed out, this flag was never a true symbol of the confederacy. Should Hawaii remove the British Flag from its state flag. Should Maryland remove symbols of France from theirs?

    There are so many other things to be concerned about. Does this flag really matter to the majority of people? I don't think so.
     
    Dog_E_Ryder and CLE32793 like this.
  11. sandwich

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2012
    Messages:
    2,614
    Likes Received:
    2,409
    Gender:
    Female
    Treason, according to the constitution, has only to do with "levying" war against the United States and/or providing "comfort" or "aid" to its enemies. I am now curious about past attempts to bring the flag under constitutional scrutiny.

    Flag issues aside, there are some who would argue that the POTUS has committed treason (by way of aid/comfort). I don't have an opinion on that right now, but I only mention it because treason is a very specific and huge issue, and great care would be needed in examining any act as potentially treasonous.

    ...............

    I am actually very proud of us in that we are all discussing this without name calling and character assassination. I can't say this about other places online.
     
    Hottie6275 likes this.
  12. glock27

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    May 25, 2015
    Messages:
    2,451
    Likes Received:
    1,648
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Merica
    I had something really long typed up but I will simply say this. The civil war was over states rights. In many ways I wish the states had more rights than they do today. Let them keep their flag. I amazed that we spend our money buying goods from a countries that treats people as bad as some slaves were treated and that is fine because they are cheap. We can fly those flags but are trying to outlaw a flag that is part of our history. Next they will try and take away our guns........oh wait.......
     
  13. Snake_Eyes

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2015
    Messages:
    120
    Likes Received:
    312
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    California
    The only comment I have about this is that Warner Bros. said they were dropping their licensing agreement for the General Lee. Come on people It's a damn car! It is not the same without it painted on the roof. That's like taking the bat symbol off of the Batmobile for crying out loud. The car doesn't stand for anything other than its role on a tv show.
     
    Countryboy44 and Hottie6275 like this.
  14. 10_3XL

    Verified Gold Member

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2014
    Messages:
    8,236
    Likes Received:
    9,546
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Idaho, USA
    You seem to have missed in my post where I said:
    The willfully ignorant statement was in regards to the other stuff I talked about in my post.
     
    CLE32793 likes this.
  15. CLE32793

    Verified Gold Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2015
    Messages:
    12,460
    Likes Received:
    21,051
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    Sunny Southeast
    Didn't miss it, was agreeing and stating again...
     
    The_E_in_CLE likes this.
  16. woodster

    Verified Gold Member

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2014
    Messages:
    608
    Likes Received:
    561
    Gender:
    Male
    Usually when a side lays down thier weapons and says I gave the surrender denies them the right to any longer fly thier banner. The winning side has the right to fly thier own banner as a testiment to thier victory. Why is this in any way different?
     
    Englishman likes this.
  17. lucky5338

    Verified Gold Member

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2014
    Messages:
    6,167
    Likes Received:
    9,265
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Scotland
    Ask the scottish nationalists !!!
     
    Cappy_Dick and CLE32793 like this.
  18. sandwich

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2012
    Messages:
    2,614
    Likes Received:
    2,409
    Gender:
    Female
    I never knew flags could be so fascinating! Check out this state flag (Hawaii):

    image.jpg

    Here are three of many US flags that flew during periods when slavery was legal. Do they represent slavery and racism? To see the entire flag you'll have to click on the thumbnail. Please don't answer my rhetorical question. They simply remind me that there are so many ways to look at this whole flag thing.

    I think that in the end love must prevail. If my next door neighbor is offended by the Confederate flag is it more loving to remove it or assert my rights? (rhetorical question number two) The best thing about this is that we are free! We could choose either. I get that people can become offended by things that we don't mean to be offensive.
     

    Attached Files:

    #18 sandwich, Jun 25, 2015
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2015
    CLE32793 and glock27 like this.
  19. sandwich

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2012
    Messages:
    2,614
    Likes Received:
    2,409
    Gender:
    Female
    Another thought....it is entirely possible that whatever flag you have was made in China.

    And yet one more....this one I would be curious to have answers to....does the idea of the government taking something away from you or prohibiting you from participating in an activity make you want to own/do it if it's something you have never owned/done before? For me I'd have to say yes. I've never wanted to own a gun. These shootings tend to make the gun control talk escalate, and the more it escalates, the more I think about getting one. I am not yet tempted to by a confederate flag....stay tuned!
     
    Mikey22 and CLE32793 like this.
  20. Mikey22

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2013
    Messages:
    1,405
    Likes Received:
    884
    Gender:
    Male
    Being from the south. I believe the southern states should fly there confederate flags proudly. Lots of men died fighting for that cause and that way of life. They should be honored. I also look at it as a freedom of speach or expression. So people say today. Take it down. So that they can apease the ones that are ofended by it.
    So my question is. What will be next? The liberals just wont stop with the confederate battle flag. We all know they want more gun controll. The non believeing crowed may be ofended by the sight of a church. So they may want to burn those down. Or ban the sell of bibles. I view the United states today. Not so much the land of the free. But the land of the ofended. The ofended ones will allways use the fucking government to get there way. And under the curent administration They appear to be getting there way.
    I know my views on these types of isues are not popular here. But it's the way I feal. So for the moment. We still have the freedom of speach. So I'm expressing my opinion.