Silver Bullet for the Girlfriend with "past" post

Discussion in 'Sex and Relationships' started by twentythreeshoe, May 2, 2008.

  1. twentythreeshoe

    twentythreeshoe New Member

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    I've been moved to this by emotions of painful sympathy with the men who find themselves in this situation.

    This post is for all those men out there who are not very sexually experienced, and who have finally found themselves a girlfriend who they love, and who loves them, but who has a past. It’s an issue that I see comes up frequently on these boards, and which always gets casually dismissed or half-answered. I really sympathise with all you guys in this position, and of course the girls on the receiving end of their men’s odd behaviour - so I thought I’d try to produce a definitive description of what’s going on. Firstly I’ll describe exactly what’s happening, and then I’ll try to show you what the solution is, and finally how you can adopt this solution for yourself. I’ve been there. This is my story, but I hope it will apply generally.

    The problem is that you’re stuck between two ways of viewing relationships, two ethics. The first way you have when you’re young. It’s the disney, “prince and princess,” “True Love” way, in which (read this next bit slowly, as it’s absolutely pivotal in where you’re stuck) copulation is seen as the product of love. It’s like a sacrement which is taken after love has been established between the couple. This idea has an extremely strong hold on you, because (hopefully) every pair of parents you ever saw around you whilst growing up perfectly embodied this ideal, apparently. Copulation was never visible in these loving relationships, and in its invisibility, you came to objectify it as something very, very special, almost magical. By copulation, I mean the biological “ins-and-outs” of sexual intercourse, the act itself. Right now, you’re in a relationship where for the first time the veil has been drawn back, and you see copulation and the loving relationship entangeled together, and you’re massively confused. You think that copulation is high and pure, but - hang on - your girlfriend seems to have done a lot of it in the past. That means that she has disregarded the purity of copulation, she has ignored it’s holiness, and so has insulted True Love, the foundation of all relationships: that means that you’re in a relationship that is wrong. But at the same time, you get on great together, and you think you might even love her - you’re in a relationship that you know works well, but that is flawed on a conceptual level. This is a *huge* problem, and you obsess about it almost constantly.

    This is the solution, what I call the second way of looking at relationships. I have no idea why this isn’t better publicised, since it’s so central to being alive in the west today:

    You come to have this new way when you’re older. Copulation has developed two distinct meanings. The reason is that you have de-objectified the idea of copulation. It is no longer that magical, invisible thing people do in private, but it is out, publically recognised rather than privately concealed. Now, when you copulate with your partner, you are not merely having sex. You are in love with a partner who is in love with you, and you are making love. Making love is what people who love each other come to do when their souls are very close, and they give their entire personalities in total honesty and openness to the other person, and copulation happens to be a major part of it. All of the partners that she has previously had sex with are now unimportant, because that was merely sex (and those she made love to are not important, because making love is always beautiful, even though she wasn’t with you). They key to the new way of looking at relationships - and the key to salvaging your own relationship right now, is realising that one act can have two entirely different meanings. It’s the difference between a robot depressing the keys of a piano, and a virtuoso pianist putting his whole soul into the performance.

    Having sex is the joining of genetalia, leading to physical pleasure.
    Making love is the joining of souls, leading to physical and spiritual pleasure.

    This is the dichotemy you have to adopt if you want to rescue your relationship - because yes, she can tell there’s something wrong, and no, it won’t last if you carry on like this.

    How do people come to see the divide between having sex and making love? I realise that it’s just a concept for you at the moment, and that you don’t really inhabit it, which you’ll have to, to move into the new way of looking at relationships. I think most people come to realise the divide by what’s called breaking their hearts. Breaking your heart means realising that you thought you were making love to him/her, but actually they were just using you for sex. For these people at this instant in time, having sex then exists entirely apart from making love. This usually happens when the person is young, perhaps their first experience. The dichotemy is established. Other than getting your heart broken, what else? Massive promiscuity will help, as having sex then becomes objectified as a goal of a night out, not of a lifetime. Of course both of these methods entail the end of the current relationship, not an ideal situation.

    The problem now is, you know how you should be thinking, but you don’t know how to truly think it. Until you have personally witnessed the concepts of “having sex” and “making love” split apart, they will always be tangled together, and you will always hate her for having copulated with another man before. A part of me thinks that just knowing this logically should help you come to terms with the fact that your girlfriend has had sex with other men before, and that that’s irrelevant to what you two have now. Another part of me thinks, you’re being foolish, you’re behaving like a middle aged man, but you only have the heart of a young man in his early 20s. Love has come too quickly...

    Love, sex, making love, broken hearts - English really is pitiful in bringing out the nuances of these world-changing terms. To be honest, after all that I don’t quite know what the best solution to your predicament may be, but I hope that now you better understand what it is to be in a relationship - and understanding always removes panic. Someone should really write a self-help book about this…

    23
     
  2. Dreama

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    Well, the making love idea versus having sex idea is a valid one. However, you shouldn't judge someone you're determined to have a relationship with because she doesn't see all sexual actions as spiritually pure, or whatever. It doesn't matter how someone views sex and love- if your with someone, and they loved before you, that's not a problem. It just means they're human, with a human soul. You can't say it's the other person's fault because you feel offended, which is what many of the men who come on here and talk about these type of problems do. They call their girlfriend's things like, "whores", "sluts", or the ever fucked up, "damaged goods". The problem most people have isn't with the jealous feeling the person has. Everyone gets jealous. It's just in dealing with the problem, and realizing that this is your problem only, and learning a constructive way to deal with it. I will never have sympathy for a man who calls his girlfriend a whore because they have sexual history.
     
  3. yorkiesmurf

    yorkiesmurf New Member

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    I have read your post but found it quite long to read. The main point that I received from reading it was the struggle to separating sex from love when you are versus when you are older.

    To begin with I would have to object to the use of the word copulation. Though copulation is a word that is used for sexual intercourse it is a word that generally gets used when you talk about animals having sex for the purpose of breeding. For me I prefer the intercourse, sexual intercourse, or sex.

    The issue of separating sex from love is not an easy thing to do and much of that ability comes from having a few relationships. When you have your first experience you do not have other experiences to compare it with. So from your education in the public schools you are taught sex = love which = marriage which = kids. Your conclusion is that you must be in love and that they are the one for you. Once you have sex a new complexity is added and not having the experience you rely on many assumptions. Then when that relationship ends it seems as a tragedy that there must be some way to keep her. Otherwise what you were taught in the public schools was wrong and for many this can create a feeling the need to search for the perfect solution. Unfortunately you spend a lot time searching only to realize there is no way you are going to keep her.

    As you have a few relationships and have different experiences with different partners you begin to learn that there is not a universal definition of love. As you get older and maybe have a one night stand or a friend with benefit relationship you begin to learn it is possible to separate sex from love. Am I advocating that everyone has a one night stand or a friends with benefit relationship? Absolutely not but I am saying that if you do have one it does provide a contrast from the Shakespearian idea of a relationship (joy followed by tragedy of the relationship ending along with the drama that comes with it). It takes time to learn that sex <> (does not equal) love and it can only come by experience.
     
  4. twentythreeshoe

    twentythreeshoe New Member

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    yes, copulation was a bad choice of word, intercourse would have been better. I wanted to use it to help highlight the two broad varieties of intercourse. If you can recognise that "having sex" and "making love" are separate varieties of intercourse, and have nothing to do with each other except the physical act, you can stop blaming your girlfriend for having "had sex" before.

    I think the reason it's such an issue for these guys, calling their gfs sluts or whores etc is that they think intercourse is a monolithic, unified act, with no different varieties. Seeing it has varieties removes the concept of being a slut, since a lover and a slut are different, and each has their place in life.

    The main problem is they're too young, but I hope I've shown the way that they can get round their inexperience and move on.
     
  5. Kanto

    Kanto Member

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    Wasn't this the plot of "Chasing Amy"?
     
  6. cbrmale

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    In my country, it is clear that young men AND young women instinctively know about having sex for pleasure and fun, and probably they learn of making love later in life. Generally they do not wait for love, or for a husband / wife, and there are no restrictions or expectations on their sex lives other than to do what is right for themselves and their partner of the time. Within our non-Christian society, it is quite acceptable for both young men and young women to experiment sexually, and maybe during this period of experimentation they will find a lifetime partner.

    Therefore, the derogatory terms slut and whore are not often used.
     
  7. Golfbuddy

    Golfbuddy New Member

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    Too much of a woman's perspective here. When a guy is steady with a girl who has a history of sitting on a lot of cocks and it makes him uncomfortable, generally he's not worried that she is "using him for sex." Generally, he's worried that she sees him in the stable sense of being a family man, a form of practicality, a "good provider", a possible future husband / economic servant and what not -- at the same time that in the moment she would rather be cavorting sexually with some swinging bachelor who rents fancy hotel rooms and has an enormous knob. Mind you, something these days she is free to do now, that she will be free to do later once she gets bored of her marriage, and that she will be free to do once she feels the matriarchal law system has the more "practical" male adequately subdued so that he has no alternative but to endure it.

    It's really quite the opposite of what you are talking about.

    I don't see that's it's necessarily irrelevant. If a job applicant has had 15 jobs in the last 10 years, and you as the person hiring are looking for someone who is going to make a career out of it, would you consider it irrelevant?

    Or is a man supposed to just leave his brains at the door when it comes to women?
     
  8. Puss_in_boots

    Puss_in_boots Adminatrix
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    I think it goes without saying that both men and women can have commitment issues. It seems to me, however, that you're making it out to be somehow worse when a woman has a checkered sexual past or when a woman cheats? Is this really your opinion?

    Also, what we've been trying to do here is to help some of these young men, many of whom have never really had a committed relationship before, to understand that just because his girlfriend had sex with two or three other people before him (yes, in some cases it was only two) that such behavior does not make her a "whore." His words, not mine. Basically we've been trying to help them adopt a more realistic attitude with respect to female behavior.

    Are you saying they should follow their instincts, have sex with them, but not commit to these girls? Isn't that just perpetuating the vicious cycle?
     
  9. Dreama

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    That's my beef with him, Puss. He's got some untrue overtly sexist ideas that he likes to push on people.
     
  10. Barbwire

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    Ignore the troll. Ignore the troll.
     
  11. heelfetish

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    Troll's been banned, troll's been banned. ;)
     
  12. Dreama

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    Thank goodness.
     
  13. Barbwire

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    Thank you, Mr.Heely.
     
  14. LPjammin

    LPjammin New Member

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    That...


    ...is the sweetest, most touching, thoughtful and sentimental piece of claptrap pedantic blithering I have ever read in my entire life. Ever.

    It's called MATURITY. "Men" who are bothered by their girls 'past' are not MEN. They are BOYS. They are immature. They are silly and they are stupid. Fortunately, there is a remedy for this. It's called...tomorrow. Lather, rinse, repeat. After a few years, you start to notice you are less immature, more thoughtful, becoming wise and more confident in yourself than to believe that, somehow, her entire world and every last cell revolves around you.

    This is a sexual forum, not a freaking day care center. Let's talk about what she did with you and you with her that rang your bell. She look at you as you came in her mouth? Almost pass out from the incredible moment? Wanna know hoe to think about baseball to make it last a little longer without completely losing your wood? Let's talk about sexual things, not emotional immaturity.

    Boys; Just because she had sex with you does not mean that it is forever. She, like you, wanted to have sex. Think about why; You were cool. You were interesting. You were mysterious. You were funny/intelligent/ sexy. Then, you fucked. It was great.
    So, now, after enjoying that, you start crying and acting like a child because she had other lovers. or 5. Or 100. Guess what? It doesn't wear out. It's not a limited resource.
    Keep being who she liked; be about your business, your hobbies, your friends, you continued development. Find out if you LIKE HER for reasons besides the fact that she went to bed with you.

    Please understand that if you give in to the moroseness and fears and insecurities of your youth, she will find this less attractive.

    I went through this. Most guys do. It's normal. It's OK. Just get OVER IT and do it quickly. It is the job of elder males to either put a foot in your azz and help you OR sit back and watch you make an azz of yourself and leave you to flounder with raging, hyper developed emotions and a brain not yet up to the task of dealing with it effectively. I'm not much for letting people suffer needless.

    Mods, before you throw me in time out, think about it; these boys need MEN to help a bit along the way. They've had a bit too much concern for their feelings as it is.
     
    #14 LPjammin, May 6, 2008
    Last edited: May 6, 2008
  15. Dreama

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    I absolutely love you, LP. :)
     
  16. Puss_in_boots

    Puss_in_boots Adminatrix
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    Hey, I have no objections at all to anything you just wrote. In fact, I applaud you. :D
     
  17. Rose

    Rose Resident Sexy Grandma
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    Hell! I wanted to crawl in bed with him & Dreama.... but I baked cookies instead :lol

    [banana]Grandma has Cookies....
    and Love for everyone!!![/banana]
     
  18. twentythreeshoe

    twentythreeshoe New Member

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    Woah! Why's everyone being so harsh? People are hurting, and how does this problem not qualify in the category

    "Sex and Relationships
    Having relation problems? Need advice? Come discuss relationships with your fellow peers."

    ?

    But I think i get your point LP - "Just get OVER IT and do it quickly" - it's a good point made with panache, but just how do you do it?

    "Keep being who she liked; be about your business, your hobbies, your friends, you continued development. Find out if you LIKE HER for reasons besides the fact that she went to bed with you."

    But what if you can't do that, because of this issue? You say just mature your way out of the issue - but how? Is that not a rational process? Is it not open to logic? (maybe not in the end, but since some other things are, let's give it a go, hey?)

    So the goal:

    "It's called MATURITY. "Men" who are bothered by their girls 'past' are not MEN. They are BOYS. They are immature. They are silly and they are stupid. Fortunately, there is a remedy for this. It's called...tomorrow. Lather, rinse, repeat. After a few years, you start to notice you are less immature, more thoughtful, becoming wise and more confident in yourself than to believe that, somehow, her entire world and every last cell revolves around you."

    nice rhetoric, but it's all form - almost no content. This men and boys divide - wtf? "Let a few years pass"? What, so even though this relationship feels very special, we should just breeze on through, not get so attached and f*ck around some more?

    "becoming wise and more confident in yourself than to believe that, somehow, her entire world and every last cell revolves around you."

    Yes, well said. But again, how?
     
  19. Rose

    Rose Resident Sexy Grandma
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    Sometimes, my most provocative, if harsh, words of wisdom have come from those who have "been-there-and-done-that". Oh, how I wish I had someone to have given ME strong admonitions to cut ties with adolescent behavior and embrace the 'great unknown' called ADULTHOOD.

    It's a slap-on-the-face type of wake up call that, truly, we ALL need from time to time.

    Angry? Of course!
    Hurt? More than words can say!
    Want to run away? Hell, yeah!!

    But until you face the monster, and grow from the experience, you will never.... NEVER understand and be able to move into a relationship in which you not only respect the other person's experience, but can honestly find appreciation - as it makes the person who they are.... It makes them who you have grown to love... It makes them a woman (or man) who has grown from their own pain and possible mistakes.

    Look at your partner - in the eyes - and either say, "I love you" or "I have reservations about you"...
    If you love her (him)... get over it (it's called maturity).
    If you have reservations about her (him).... it's not time for you to settle.

    At some point, we hopefully will find the one that is "perfect" for us. Not "Perfect" - just perfect for us... Mature Love - at it's best! ;)

    Rose (married for 30+ years to the same man)
     
  20. Dreama

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    Everyone has control over their own emotions...The emotion of jealousy is normal. Feel it, and let it pass. However, when you let it own you, your actions, and your life, you're copping out of actually dealing with the reasons behind the jealousy. You have to work through your own problems- Ask yourself, what reason do I have to be jealous? Am I insecure about myself? Am I afraid she'll leave me for someone else? etc, because that is really the heart of the matter. The problem is not with her-it's with you, and you have to fix your own problems to fix the jealousy you have in a relationship. Be in the 'now' instead of the past. I suggest you read the book 'The Power of Now" by Eckhart Tolle. :)