Should The US Constitution Be Rewritten?

Discussion in 'The Lounge' started by Kermit, Apr 4, 2012.

  1. Kermit

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    Okay inspired by a couple threads i've seen lately of a political tinge...i thought why not post this one.

    Is the US Constitution timeless or is it archaic and needs to be rewritten? Considering how the world has changed perhaps it could use a face lift?
     
  2. ninja08hippie

    ninja08hippie Official SF Hugger
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    It was specifically written to not be static. See the 9th Amendment :p

    The current problem as I see it in the United States isn't the constitution, it's the fact that the constitution is being ignored:

    Bush went to war without the approval of congress (only congress can declare war)
    Bush signed orders to torture prisoners (the US signed the Geneva Convention)
    Bush signed the Patriot Act which violated
    • 4th amendment (requirement of search warrants / court orders for wire taps)
    • 5th amendment (due process)
    • 6th amendment (speedy trial, trial buy jury, confronting your accuser)
    • 8th amendment (excessive bail, cruel and unusual punishment)
    Obama signed NDAA (4th and 6th amendments)
    Obama signed the law forbidding protesting political events (violates 1st amendment)
    All Senators except two of them get massive amounts of bribes by big business (a federal offense unless it's done by a lobbyist)
    Many states have added amendments to discriminate against gays (violates Title IX and the 1st amendment)

    I think if the constitution was upheld, the country would work fine. I think that the government has gotten so far away from the people that there is no way back. The people don't control the government anymore, it's the other way around.

    But yes, the constitution should be updated. Unfortunately Roosevelt died before pushing through the second bill of rights which would have made us a more modern country in terms of rights.
     
    #2 ninja08hippie, Apr 4, 2012
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2012
  3. BigTitLover

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    Both H.W.Bush and W.Bush had congressional approval.
    H.W. in 1991 with the Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq Resolution
    W.Bush in 2002 with the Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq Resolution of 2002

    Anyone who goes through SERE training gets water boarded.

    Up until Obama signed NDAA first part of the year, investigations into US Citizens still required warrants and due process. Then only if you were a suspected terrorist. If you are not a citizen you're on your own. With the new version of NDAA signed by Obama ANYONE that is "Suspected Terrorist" can be watch and/or held indefinitely with out due process. There are a handful of Dems and Reps working to get that removed.

    The "Tresspass law" tightened up existing law. Don't be a tool at event where the security is being handled by the Secret Service. You can still peacefully protest, soon as you do something that is disruptive like.. ohh.. shouting down the pres while he speaks, or throwing a shoe. Your ass is hauled off.

    You think they are in it for their health?

    That gets into the whole religion argument.
     
    #3 BigTitLover, Apr 4, 2012
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2012
  4. Texas_Red

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    No, I think it's not meant to be a career, and they are servants of the public, not the almighty dollar or corporate interests.

    As for an overhaul of the constitution, I think it could use a little bit of tweaking here and there, but overall I stand with the idea that it would be fine if it were being properly enforced. People are willing to look the other way and not argue about things they do because it's them breaking the rules trying to get things their way. Personal interest and all.
     
  5. ninja08hippie

    ninja08hippie Official SF Hugger
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    You were right about the war, but he did do many illegal things during the war. The defense act for example he completely ignored the congress. Congress said no to building permanent military bases in Iraq, Bush went ahead anyway.

    Just out of curiosity, for how long? Some of the interrogations of prisoners lasted months. Waterboarding was not the only method of torture used by the CIA, it was just the one most investigated. Also, it doesn't matter if you went through it or not. The Geneva Convention says NO TORTURE. Not no torture unless you subject your own men to it first.

    Wrong, I remember reading about US citizens in Title II I believe, other people have thought that before too. There is also no definition of the word "terrorist." Today terrorist can mean anything from a real terrorist, to wikileaks, to a peaceful protester. For 2 months the Bush administration officially recognized nobel peace prize winner Nelson Mendela as a terrorist.

    Nope, you aren't even allowed to show up now. You don't think you should have the right to shout things while the president is speaking? Well too bad, it's in the 1st amendment. Don't incite a riot? Not against the law.

    So you think it's okay that most of what they care about is their bank accounts, not the people they "represent?" I think politicians should be public servants, not capitalists.

    Anything passed for religious reasons automatically violates the constitution.
     
    #5 ninja08hippie, Apr 4, 2012
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2012
  6. BigTitLover

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    On my phone rather than pc so forgive me for not quoting.

    As for my health comment. I was being sarcastic. World is in great need of a sarcasm font. There needs to be term limits for congress.

    The SERE training is deferant for each branch. On average at its a week on the torture part I believe. Have couple friends and relatives currently serving. I'll have to check.

    Pretty sure until recent the Patriot Act still needed due process for US citizens. Have to go back and read. But in it current form is worse than ever.

    As what is a terrorist. Far as I'm concerned the tool behind wikileaks is a cyber terrorist, and the people who give him info are traders.

    Last trip to STL the Obama made people protested him, they didn't get hauled off. They were not inside the function, but outside on the street.

    Inciting a riot is against the law, so is yelling fire in a theater when there isn't one.

    When a elected official has a large group of people that believe a certain way the elected official will do what is needed to keep that group happy so they vote in favor again. Most things I have seen is the argument over the word "marriage" and how its defined. Don't see what the fuss is about. I was married. Never again. We can live together, share stuff, taint getting married again.
     
  7. Kermit

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    Just about anywhere, you shout and cause a disruption the people running the show have the right to escort people out of the building or area
     
  8. tomakehersmile

    tomakehersmile New Member

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    umm.. not true about the sere training.. unless it's something they very recently implemented which i doubt..
     
  9. tomakehersmile

    tomakehersmile New Member

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    The biggest challenge imo regarding politics in general is to pull their oxygen supply from the wallets of big business.. it's fucking up our infrastructure,,
     
  10. BigTitLover

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    Uncle who is retired Marine said he didn't get it in SERE, but he said my cousin who is a seal did.

    Still waiting to hear back from my buddy in the army.
     
  11. tomakehersmile

    tomakehersmile New Member

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    same situation here.. different branches train slightly differently. However i know it hasn't changed that they are not supposed to discuss the specifics of their training so forget i mentioned it
     
  12. BigTitLover

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    Buddy replied back. Wouldn't say anything but that he had to sign an NDA. He's heading out for his 3rd tour here soon.
     
  13. cbrmale

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    The US constitution reflects the state of the world in 1776, and to a large extent give the president the powers of a British monarch of that time (George V). Because Britain doesn't have a constitution, the legal balance of monarch and parliament has evolved quite substantially since then. When the Australian Constitution was drafted in the 1880s it reflected this scaled-down version of monarch, who only has limited reserve powers to call elections, appoint the prime minister to form a government and so on. Indeed we are a constitutional monarchy.

    If the US were writing their constitution today they would do away with the deadlock between a pseudo-monarch and an elected parliament, which almost guarantees that major reform and change becomes impossible. This war or that bill is not the problem, the real problem is the US needs the flexibility to deal with the rise of China, India and other Asian powers, and it cannot because that flexibility cannot happen unless there's an unlikely alliance between congress and the president. So it's more of the same and high unemployment, a moribund economy and a political blame-game over who's to blame (in reality the political system).

    Mark my words: the US will have unemployment in the 8% to 10% band and economic growth of less than 5% for the next 10 years. Economic change is needed but the political system of perpetual gridlock won't allow it.

    What the US needs to do is scrap tarrifs, scrap subsidies, cut defence spending to reduce the budget deficit, introduce a more comprehensive social welfare system (to cut poverty, crime and to improve life expectancies) and basically do many of the things that the rest of the member countries of the OECD have done over past decades.
     
  14. CosmicEye

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    Thats a good question. There are many reasons why it should or shouldnt be changed. I agree that times have changed but also that it still holds true in every aspect I think. It keeps alot of things in check but I think raising the question is fair.

    Im not much of a political type and dont know a whole lot of the constitution besides what I had learned in school. I will saty out of this never ending debate.
     
  15. AHappyWife

    AHappyWife New Member

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    I just reread my post before posting it and wanted to apologize for how long it is! I do not feel we need to change our constitution. If you wish to know why, read on. If not. That's fine too.

    Because of all the sheer hatred our elected officials, lobbyists, special interets and many others throw around everytime they open their mouths in the past few years, I've become aware of politics in general. Anyone who makes a career as a public servant is very bad news to those who elect them and all of us who didn't. The gigantic host of people thinking it's a great and healthy idea to force policies and inact laws that are specifically designed to identify and separate one American from another for any special interest whatsoever, prompted me to recently read the Consitution, Bill of Rights and the Declaration of Independence.

    I don't think it needs to be changed. It's crystal clear that this country wanted to be totally different from the Western European empires who were very busy exploiting the people and riches of every land they could find for 100s of years. At that time, every country from Britian, France, Spain, Portugal, Denmark, Netherlands, etc. Etc. had no regard for life in general. Those countries (and many more) carelessly ruled and raped the planet with an iron fist. To such an extent, they felt it was a God given right to conqour lands far and away by killing and instilling fear of their way or the highway. They literally and ruthlessley stoled everything of value they could find and promptly shipped it right back home. They destroyed entire cultures, melted their gold and silver making them into coins representing their home land. Their crime list is endless. There were so many human rights violations by these countries, I seriously doubt anyone could ever make an accurate and complete list. They've never been tried on any of these crimes either. There is no discussion about it anywhere. No accouting whatsoever!

    Everyone around the world knows that England tried to colonize the plant. If you were unfortunate enough to have lived there and they didn't like you, you got jailed, repressed, killed or transported as an indentured servant for many years. That's exactly how Australia got born. All those countries got heavy into slavery of every kind. Spain? Do you think people here ever really wonder why EVERYONE is So America speaks Spanish and their own local languages and cultures lay literally in the dust? We're just now really understanding more about all the various tribes that lived here. Everything they had was stolen, destroyed, and the people were massacured. There are too many atrocities by many countries towards the Americas in general to even fathom. Matter of fact, they did this all over the globe. England escpecially thought they could conquor eveyone, everywhere. How about even India? Or Arabia, whom they could not colonzie? I could go on about them all. They used to teach this in school.

    Personally, I feel that we owe the Native American population more than we can ever begin to repay. They were killed off to the point of many being totally lost to the "civilazied" world. Yet, no one out there is talking about them. At all.

    I think our founders got many, many things right. Not perfect. But it's the best one there is and is exactly why people from everywhere in the world want to move here.

    Our country is very young and we have much healing and growing together to accomplish. We need to deal with the severe pain caused by those countries and their "explorers" who came here and imposed their wrath. It was so inhumane on every level that eventually it caused a courageous few to speak out and finally break free. We still feel the pain of human slavery (black and white and brown and red. Men, women, and children all). We still are dealing with the pain of the world neglecting women's rights since the dawn of time. I am hopeful that we will work as Amercians to make our country the best it can be. It can only happen if we are together. If were continue to divide, segregate, and hate each other (like those countries I mentioned excelled at and first brought here) we might not get a chance to see better days.

    We are not perfect. Nothing and no one is. I am very, very thankful that I was born here. I look around the world and see what's going on out there and it is really terrifying.

    As far as what a terrorist is, you know as soon as you hear the crime they committed. It's usually murder in one form or another, in the name of greed, ego, or over an ideal most of us would never even consider. The new thing of terror by words is one we need to get a handle on. Constantly hating another for opinions and attacking each other in hateful ways makes us no better than those we originally faught against to form the United States.
     
  16. cbrmale

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    Ahappywife,
    Your post is about the eighteenth century from a 21st century perspective. Britain colonised the world and sent convicts to Australia, but many free settlers also came to Australia for the greater opportunity it offered. The American revolution started when some wealthy landowners got the hump over being asked to pay Britain for the money Britain was spending to develop America! Around the same time the French revolution broke free, bringing down the monarchy, aristocracy and the Roman church. Much of what America tried to do was modelled on what the French did at the time.

    Subsequent to that, of course, America had a chequered past in declaring war on Spanish colonies, in order to seize valuable land. So the actions of America in those early days mirrored what the European powers were doing at the time. Britain invaded India and America took their share by force too. And, of course there was the ongoing issue of slavery, which Britain backed away from before the American constitution was drafted (I presume that consitution didn't apply to slaves at the time).

    All this is history and what this thread is about is now. From my perspective the American constitution and the resulting leglislative gridlocks has meant that the US hasn't been able to keep pace with the rest of the world in many ways. It does need to be re-written to be more like Europe NOW or Australia NOW or even India and China NOW, because all of these places are able to enact and implement structural and economic change, but the US cannot.
     
  17. AHappyWife

    AHappyWife New Member

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    Hi Cbrmale, thanks for the reply. Of course, i disagree.

    We don't tell you all how you should live and I personally think it's wrong for you to try and tell us how we should. We are over it. Almost 300 years over it and yet you all are still at it.
    Let us be!

    England, Spain and France, in particular, did, in fact, try to conquor everyone around the world. History speaks for itself. It doesn't matter what century it is. America IS and was made of of all those people and many more. Exactly why we wanted to be free. I would think that we have immigrants here from every country in the world. Everyone of them.

    If I was a Frenchmen, I would not be proud of the fact that my people were mass murders of their own people and are still proud of the guillotine today. There is no social responsibility in that. Only serious hate crimes perpuated by their own people for redistribution. That's a major history lesson for every American to know about.

    And it wasn't long ago you could hear a mob of Englishmen scream "Off with er head!" On the news by a group of angry people wanting to kill a member of their very own first family. I pray we never see that hatefulness and pure jealousy here.
    Please keep that for yourself. No need to share.

    I don't want my country to be anything like Western Europe. Ever. I want us to be the USA - by the people and for the people. We will make our mistakes. We're young and do learn from them. All those countries are ancient and have much to atone for to the Worldwide community. I don't care if it's 2012. History speaks for itself. It cannot be spinned.

    Western Europe is on literally on the brink of bankruptcy because of an ideal "Socialism" that has never worked. In another ten years, there will nothing left for the people to take from other people. Except lives. Greece is a warning that's totally ignored. Italy is about a millimeter away from devestation. Ireland is destitute. Spain? Same as the rest. How about Portugal? France will most likely be next followed shortly thereafter by England. Yet, the "people" keep taking from their very own people for themselves without a thought for the whole. Why would any sane person want to follow along that path? Poor Germany. They are in so deep.

    It's just not possible to take everything away from those who work and then "redistribute" based upon fancy ideals to others. It's so sad to me! Also, those countries have minimal military protection. I do not want America anything like that.

    We still have to find a way to come together. I have faith that we will. I can promise that it won't be anything like communist china where the average worker makes less than $5.00 a day and the female babies are abandoned in the streets hourly. No freedome of anything. Let alone the right to life.

    I don't dislike Europe in any way. Please don't think that. I'm just pointing out that the combined history is full of klilling and taking from one to keep for another. Today's modern WE is following in their own historicla footsteps. They've just given it a nice name and covered it up with spin.
     
  18. cbrmale

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    France is my second home... Really the French revolution was about a supressed peasant-like majority and a corrupt upper-class minority, and eventually it was going to boil over. A lot like the Bolshevik revolution some 130 years later. The French did in the monarchs, the aristocrats and the Church, which had been bleeding poor people dry forever. The Russians did much the same including the Church. In both cases if change wasn't going to come except by force, then force it was. France then set to liberating the rest of Europe from corrupt monarchy and aristocracy. The worst thing that happened to Russia was they defeated the French. If the French won the battle of Borodin, the Bolshevik revolution and communism would never have happened.

    Today, the welfare state has many social benefits, as long as it's affordable. There is greater social cohesion but more importantly there is less crime. If a person can survive without resorting to criminal activities, then it's likely they will not be forced to steal to survive. The current state of affairs in the US isn't working: the US has more murders than the rest of the developed world put together, and it also has more prisoners in jail than the rest of the developed world put together too. You don't find those problems in France, or in Australia too. In both countries we are relatively safe.

    In Britain the newly elected conservative government cut benefits to the most needy and look what happened! It wasn't pretty but it was predictable. An alienated underclass is always a problem, and both Britain and the US suffering from this.

    The answer is balance. The US system of social Darwinism doesn't work, and an benefit for all for life welfare system is unaffordable. So we need something in the middle.

    Maybe ingrained opinions by Americans are the reason why American tourists are hated in Europe, and especially in France. I could never understand the hatred myself as I have always been treated well in Europe and in France (I am fluent in French which helps, but my wife barely speaks a word and she's always been treated with courtesy). In any case all countries ought to learn from each other, and this is the one thing the rest of the world never understands about the US. Clearly there are major problems there, clearly they could be solved, but they won't look outward to see what other societies have done to solve the same set of problems.
     
    #18 cbrmale, Apr 21, 2012
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2012
  19. Trond

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    "Liberating"? You believe in Napoleon's propaganda? The man declared himself emperor (traditionally a monarchical title made up to avoid the use of the term "King"). And by the way, France itself had to undergo several more revolutions before it became more permanently democratic. If this is true for France, it could well have ended in several bloody revolutions in Russia as well.
     
  20. AHappyWife

    AHappyWife New Member

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    Thanks for the feedback. I've done some research and wish to share:

    First, your facts about the USA saving a higher crime rate than UK and Australia are incorrect and a big myth. You can google it to verify, but our crime rate has consistently declined since gun permit laws changed late 70s and early eighties.

    Indeed, Australia has seen a whooping 43% violent crimes increase in the past few years since they banned guns. Stats from your goverment back this up. In fact, the stats are from them. They've recently admitted their gun control bans have not helped crime, but enabeled.

    Here's the most recent stats I could find: AUSTRALIA: MORE VIOLENT CRIME DESPITE GUN BAN

    One in three Australian women are subjected to rape alone. Another report said that one in three people are/will be subject to a violent crime. They only have 22 million people! Per capita, Australia is one of the most violent places there is. So is England. Both are not far behind SoAfrica which is widely considered the most violent nation.

    Since 2008 in the usa, handgun permits have skyrocketed. Our crime rate has also dropped 23%. There are pages and pages of goolge stories asking how this can be. There are also pages and pages of opinions why this is. Most of them are far right and say they don't know why, but it can't be "because of handgun permits." It is because of just that.

    We have fifty states and I think 117million people. Per capits crime wise, we are nowhere near Australia and the UK. The UK recently received the bad news that they, in fact, are the most violent country in the entire EU.

    The reason our crime rates have dropped is due to personal responsibility and personal protection. Not social responsibility or protection.

    Amercia saved France and WE in WWii. It's a fact the French still grudginly admit. That is why they hate us. Most of the world hates us because of our constitution. Because we are rich. Because we are free. Because we are 117 million strong and not 20 million like them.

    Land mass wise, you could copy and past WE twice into our country and we would still have space left over. We are 50 "countries" united, unlike the UN and EU. The British Commonwealth in think, has fifty four votes at the UN. We have one.

    I also read up on your healthcare system and apparently it has undergone one change after the other since 1948 or so. Every change brought restrictions on care. It's now so expensive, I read they are going to "give" doctors grants to handle the people so the government can wash their hands of the whole deal. The 154 units who decided who got care and didn't are going to be defunct. They admit they can no longer afford the costs brought on by your Labor Party since the 90s. If someone is very sick, chances are poor they will get any quality care. Although, preventative is a short wait??

    I'll say that Europe may really hate America. I don't know. I have been there many, many times and the French were the rudest followed by the Brits. Germany was consistently friendly. Have you noticed the gigantic decline of American tourists? The entire EU sure has.

    Russia actually learned from the French. Theyrounded up the Tsar and his whole family and took them out to a field and shot them all dead. Along with many other royals. In came communism. We know what happened there. Now, they are a dictatorship. Just like UK.

    Now more than ever, I do not want our Constitution changed. The EU/UN's New World Order was just released. It mirrors verbatim the plan laid out by Prince Charles in a statement he made in the 70s. England does repress it's people and it does want to conqour the world again! Woe is them. We need to get out of the UN right now. The Power Of The British Commonwealth Over The World

    All of the facts I have stated can be googled.

    [UOTE=cbrmale;343104]France is my second home... Really the French revolution was about a supressed peasant-like majority and a corrupt upper-class minority, and eventually it was going to boil over. A lot like the Bolshevik revolution some 130 years later. The French did in the monarchs, the aristocrats and the Church, which had been bleeding poor people dry forever. The Russians did much the same including the Church. In both cases if change wasn't going to come except by force, then force it was. France then set to liberating the rest of Europe from corrupt monarchy and aristocracy. The worst thing that happened to Russia was they defeated the French. If the French won the battle of Borodin, the Bolshevik revolution and communism would never have happened.

    Today, the welfare state has many social benefits, as long as it's affordable. There is greater social cohesion but more importantly there is less crime. If a person can survive without resorting to criminal activities, then it's likely they will not be forced to steal to survive. The current state of affairs in the US isn't working: the US has more murders than the rest of the developed world put together, and it also has more prisoners in jail than the rest of the developed world put together too. You don't find those problems in France, or in Australia too. In both countries we are relatively safe.

    In Britain the newly elected conservative government cut benefits to the most needy and look what happened! It wasn't pretty but it was predictable. An alienated underclass is always a problem, and both Britain and the US suffering from this.

    The answer is balance. The US system of social Darwinism doesn't work, and an benefit for all for life welfare system is unaffordable. So we need something in the middle.

    Maybe ingrained opinions by Americans are the reason why American tourists are hated in Europe, and especially in France. I could never understand the hatred myself as I have always been treated well in Europe and in France (I am fluent in French which helps, but my wife barely speaks a word and she's always been treated with courtesy). In any case all countries ought to learn from each other, and this is the one thing the rest of the world never understands about the US. Clearly there are major problems there, clearly they could be solved, but they won't look outward to see what other societies have done to solve the same set of problems.[/QUOTE]