Scientifically, what is the homophobia gripping America?

Discussion in 'The Lounge' started by ninja08hippie, Dec 20, 2013.

  1. ninja08hippie

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    Most people I know are confused how people who aren't gay can have any opinion on whether or not other people should have certain rights. Then I thought about it sociologically and anthropologically.

    Evolutionarily speaking, those who undermine and exploit other humans have an advantage. The creature willing to kill and steal to gather necessary materials will be favored in natural selection. Our humanity tells us it's wrong, but instance tells us to do it. But evolution isn't one sided, it's an arms race, when one set of humans develop the instinct to exploit, other humans develop the instinct to be weary other groups of humans.

    Cultures that are completely different can live side by side peaceful only as long as they are unaware of each other. In the south, the people's superstition bound them together and they were blissfully unaware of everyone else until about 1995. Then the internet happened, and everyone was not instantly connected to everyone else. We became aware of each other's cultures and that created a tremendous cultural shock.

    Cultural shocks have always ended badly. When the world industrialized, millions of people had to start interacting with people very different than their own. Genocide and wars was the result. The Nazis killed 5 millions Jews and the Americans killed 100 million natives.

    Us in urban areas were already well aware of all the other cultures before the 90s, so we've already been intermingling with blacks, muslims, gays... for decades. When I watched the Friends episode with the lesbian wedding in the late 90s, I was too young to even realize it was out of the norm.

    So when a group of people encounter another group of people, they instinctively fear it because of hard wiring from our evolution. Then they will bind to the single thing that binds them together, in the rural south, that's their superstition. That gives the leaders of the superstition, in this case the christian faith, an extra loud voice.

    Media is driven by capitalism, journalistic integrity is a thing of the past and news is all about sensationalizing the mundane to get ratings. A group of people preaching bigotry is easy to blow out of proportion, so they did it. Because the most extreme were representing the christian beliefs, and because christians are taught that the very core of their religion is to follow, not to think, the media easily whipped up a huge group of people that otherwise wouldn't care into hate mongering pawns of the most extreme minority.

    The plutocrats more interested in keeping their own positions immediately bonded to an ideal that was wrong, but their ill-lead base now believed, thus it became a political issue.


    I do have hope for the human race, culture clashes have created wars, but for the most part, intellectual groups tended to mingle peacefully. The majority of the world is run by intellectuals, they just happen to use the ignorant masses to sway the vote, but won't actually act on ideals that they know in the long run is wrong, because in the long run, they know if they act on it too much, they'll lose their job when public opinion eventually sways to reality.

    Could apply the same logic to the muslim world, most of the ignorant mass was pretty much unaware of it until 9-11, where they immediately gave it a negative connotation and you had idiot politicians calling allah a monkey god, unaware that christians and muslims worship the same god.
     
  2. Silverfox

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    What do you see as the answer? Is there an answer? Are there answers? Are we, as a species, intelligent enough to overcome our inherent biological/anthropological/sociological/psychological evolutionary flaws? Or, are they triumphs? Time will tell; It always does.

    We are the only extant species of the genus, Homo. There is no other Homo subspecies left. We're it. Homo Sapiens. That's virtually unheard of in the natural world. What does that say about us? Has our large brain caused us to outcompete ourselves into oblivion? We've been here for such a brief time, and look at what we've done. Is it good? Is it bad?

    I have hope for us, as well. If we live long enough.
     
  3. ninja08hippie

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    That's not unheard of actually, evolutionary branches hit dead ends all the time, and it happens more noticeable at the macro level. A better version of a species will often overtake the original species within it's boundaries in only a few generations.

    Time will tell indeed, the nature of some to resist integrating with new cultures will cause sections of humanity to isolate themselves. Eventually, those who remain in their isolated areas will inevitably natural select out, as those in progressive areas will have greater benefit from technology and knowledge, making us more efficient life forms.

    Humans are still primitive creatures, as long as we are below the threshold of a truly civilized society, our self destructive nature is a constant existential risk. Even if we surpass the animalistic need for war, our own curiosity may end up being our own biggest threat. AI, nano machines, antimatter, any of it in the hands of trigger happy apes like us is like a boiling pot handle in reach of a toddler.
     
  4. Silverfox

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    That's a disappointing hypothesis, but current evidence certainly supports the theorem. As a social scientist, I find the thought progression intriguing, but as a humanist, I feel the need to work for a more holistic response.
     
  5. teamster145

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    I am a Bible believing follower but not a hate mongering pawn. I do believe that homosexuality is wrong but i do not hate them. I should be able to express my views the same as you without being ridiculed for them. It seems to me that I am supposed to be more tolerant of their lifestyle than they are of mine. That is just my 2ยข.
     
  6. ninja08hippie

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    True, but there is a difference. Homosexuals are born gay, you were taught to think it's wrong. It's not your fault, your culture came from thousands of years of superstition, science is fairly new and it takes a long time for people who evolved a certain way to change something they've been taught since they were a kid. Can't teach an old dog new tricks is more true for human nature than canine nature. It's no different than the people who were taught that being black was wrong, nobody was born that way, racism is taught and illogical, that's why it's ridiculed. I think it should be ridiculed because without teaching the next generation that it's wrong to hate people the way they are, they'll grow up thinking the same thing as their parents, which negatively affects everyone.
     
  7. teamster145

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    But your belief is no more proven than mine is. Still based on belief. You believe life came from non life accidently. I believe it was created for a purpose. What makes yours right and mine wrong?
     
  8. ninja08hippie

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    Not true, there has been lots of recent scientific looks at homosexuality and they all come to the conclusion that it's hard wired, not taught. I'll bet you'd find the same hard wiring in the brain of racists too thought. The difference is that sexual attraction is a very powerful force, where distrust of those different is a weak one, both could probably be overridden with enough psychology, but racism is far easier to reverse intellectually.




    On a side note, since you brought it up, I wouldn't consider a 5000 year old story book written by goat farmers who thought the earth was flat to be the same level of proof as the fossil record, the genetic record, astronomical observations, decades of chemistry experiments, and observation of evolution at the micro level to be even close to the equal. I've always been curious why christians seem to just ignore all of this evidence rather than adapt their religion like the jews. I'm pretty sure the bible says god created man, where does it say that he snapped his fingers and we appeared, why can't it mean that your god have set in motion evolution? What's going to happen to beliefs so rooted in tradition when we meet someone else equally or further evolved than us? I also find no reason to think yours is right, every human culture has had gods, no two have ever come up with the same two, the logical conclusion is that gods are an evolutionary response from a curious creature that can't yet explain his world.

    I'm not saying it's 100%, but it's so close to it, that I find relying on superstition for explanations of how the world work a little antiquated. Even if evolution isn't right, it fits the data better than anything else. Hell, I'll bet if you ask 99.9% of the population, they would say that gravity is mass attracting other mass, even though that was disproven 80 years ago, but it fits almost all the data. Sometimes the reality is simply too complicated for some people to understand, so they turn to simpler explanations.
     
    #8 ninja08hippie, Dec 25, 2013
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2013
  9. teamster145

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    I am not talking about that I am talking about creation vs. Evolution. Meaning of life, this is where everything starts. I think some days I was born to do certain things but due to my belief I do not do them. I restrain myself. There are people alive today because of that. What is right to you and right to me are different because of what we believe about how we got here. You think there are no rules except that which we come up with. I think there are rules set in place that it is better if we live by.
     
  10. teamster145

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    Actually the Bible never mentions the world being flat. That would have been the scientists of the day. The Bible mentions a lot of things that were long thought to be wrong and were later proved to be right. Life coming from something that is not living is not scientific it is a belief. It cannot be proven, cannot be produced in a lab, and even if it could would not prove it happened on its own. As far as you last sentence, I could not agree more. The Bible even says people will be willingly ignorant.
     
  11. ninja08hippie

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    What does the meaning of life have to do with racism and homosexuality? Science doesn't get into why, it only explains how, why is a question reserved for philosophy, of which superstition is a subset of.


    I've been thinking about the reaction of religious people when we meet someone else, I conclude that we likely wouldn't be contacted until the entire planet gives up religion. If I were an alien race, I would not want to give humans any technology as long as they still had religion based on exclusion. Alien contact would make the vatican either start talking about conversion or genocide, both would start wars.
     
  12. teamster145

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    You are talking abut what is right and what is wrong. Where does your difference come from and what makes it right? I believe the Bible teachs what is right and what is wrong.
     
  13. ninja08hippie

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    Ironically, the people that wrote the bible were the best scientists of the day. They made observations about their world, formed a hypothesis and didn't see anything contradictory to it for thousands of years.

    And technically, your chemistry could be deconstructed into inorganic substances, then recombined into you again. We just lack that technology at this point of our evolution. And remember, not being able to prove something doesn't mean that it doesn't fit the data better than everything else. We're not even able to prove that a^2 + b^2 = c^2 even though it's never not worked.
     
  14. teamster145

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    There have to be standards and where do yours come from?
     
  15. ninja08hippie

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    Not true, culture teaches you what is right and wrong, not your bible. Your interpretation of the bible just happens to controls your culture, if you lived 200 years ago in the south, you would be going to your bible to defend slavery. If you lived 300 years ago in the colonies, you would have used it to defend the genocide of the natives. If you lived 400 years ago in spain, you would have used it to defend the genocide of the southern natives. If you lived 800 years ago in Europe you would have used your bible to defend the genocide of the jews and muslims. The same texts are interpreted very very differently by different cultures, the christianity you believe in would be completely foreign to christians of different time periods, even if you were reading from the same book. Things christians would consider barbaric now were very sacred once. We're taught right and wrong from our culture, superstitions are a small part of culture.

    Easy example: are women equal to men? Your bible tells you no, your culture tells you yes, which do you believe?
     
    #15 ninja08hippie, Dec 25, 2013
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  16. ninja08hippie

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    I'm not arguing against your religion, I'm just trying to get you to look at it in an anthropological way.

    Think about all of the different christian groups in the world, all reading the same book, evolved from the same people, with very different sets of right and wrong. The USA south is actually atypical of christian cultures in a lot of ways. The bible contradicts itself many times, so it can't be read so black and white. Rural New England is just as christian as the deep south and have a completely different set of views on what god would say about gays. While the south focuses on things like "a man shall not lay in bed with another man" they focus on things like "love thy neighbor" and the story of the good samaritan. Different interpretations of the same book that create very different sets of beliefs, it's all relative to the culture, not the book.
     
    #16 ninja08hippie, Dec 25, 2013
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  17. teamster145

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    People have used the Bible in a lot of ways but we were talking about whether homosexuality is right or wrong I believe it is wrong based on the Bible. You believe it is right based on science. I do not understand how you believe what you do anymore than you understand mine. However, what makes it right or wrong is who wins the fight. It was fine for Hitler to kill Jews until he was defeated. Had he conquered the world we would probably be speaking German and killing Jews, if there were any left. You do not understand my belief nor do I yours. You know where my right from wrong comes from. Where does yours come from. What if I wanted to sleep with 6 year old girls who were willing. Would this be OK with you and if not why not. They were willing.
     
  18. ninja08hippie

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    I said, mine comes from the culture of those around me, same as you. Your belief in the bible comes from the way you were taught by your parents and those around you, my belief in science and civil rights comes from mine. That's how sociology and neurology says we learn, which I believe comes from an evolutionary advantage to learning that way, which was most likely the ability to pass down information such as how to make a stone tool or spark a fire with flint. Our nearest relatives the chimps do not really have culture beyond anything primitive even thought they are smart enough to make and use tools, yet we have had thousands of unique cultures, so that evolved after we diverged from them. :)

    You're free to think being gay is wrong, you get ridiculed by the rest of the culture when you try to force that belief on other people. Certain beliefs are built into the northern culture that the constitution protects. You're free to think whatever you want, but no one may make laws discriminating based on a religious belief in a country where everyone is supposed to be treated fairly. If some people don't like that, they can move to Uganda where they have no such beliefs in rights or separation of church and state.

    They seem to just be an evolutionary reaction by a certain subset of people who complain that the culture is changing too quickly. For 50,000 years ago, those who strayed too far from what they knew were likely to encounter dangerous other humans, animals, and natural dangers. But, without those pushing outwards, the culture would stagnate and die. As a species, we need both, there is no telling what awaits us when we push out into the last frontier.
     
    #18 ninja08hippie, Dec 25, 2013
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  19. teamster145

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    My point is you do not know you are right anymore than I do. We all have to do what we think is right. There was a time it was legal and believed to be fine to kill Jews. We can only, and should only do what we feel is right.
     
  20. ninja08hippie

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    Right, and my point was what you believe is right did not come from your bible, it came from your culture's current interpretation of it.