Politicial Ideals in Conflict on Gay Rights

Discussion in 'Sex and Relationships' started by Logger, Mar 7, 2005.

  1. Logger

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    This post is an attempt to describe some of the conflicting Ideals that relate to Gay Rights. Since Gay Rights means different things to deifferent people, and since politics can be a matter more of belief, than logic, it is possible for strong opinions to be expressed on these topics, and politics in general.

    On other forums where political discussions have a separate sub-category, there is a warning to members that posting on a political thread can bring up strong rebuttals. Ideally, rebuttal posts should discuss the issue, rather than the qualities of the person making the argument being rebutted. Argumentun ad Hominum means an argument against the man, and is the name for a rule in some debate contexts, that means personal attacks or crticism of the individual debater, should not be made. With the annonymity of internet forums, it is tempting to slam anyone with different political ideas. This forum has largely been a support forum, so posting on this thread should probably be considered differently from posting on the non-political threads on this forum.

    There have been political discussions on other threads, but this may be the first thread intentionally dedicated to political discussion.

    My personal intent is to lay out some issues that are current, and in contradcition, leading to no real right answer. My personal belief of the correct mix of the priorities, fluctuates, and I often function to describe obscure positions, so that all ideals may be balanced.

    One ideal is for Gay Pride. Anyone who is Gay, should not feel ashamed of being Gay. Ideally, a Gay person should feel comforable about coming out of the closet, and announcing to anyone with whom contact occurs, about being Gay. Public displays of affection between same sex partners should be protected and encouraged, to maximize Gay Pride.

    A different and somewhat conflicting ideal, is to elect liberal minded public officials, who will make appointments and vote on public policies that are favorable to Gay people. Many judges and commission members are apointed by the elected public officials. It is my belief that there is a concerted effort by the religious right to defeat liberal minded public officials, judges and commissioners, so that the Christian Right agenda of anti-abortion and anti-family planning can be advanced.

    Ideally, there would be a separation of the issues of abortion, family planning and Gay Rights. In reality, the Christian Right is using the backlash against advances in Gay rights, to generate votes against libveral politicians. In Ohio, a swing state that would have given Kerry the election, a deliberate effort was made to get out those voters with fears, or misunderstandings, of the Gay Movement, to vote against liberals.

    What is the best way to educate those voters who fear progress in Gay Rights? What is the best way to allay the fears of the right to a Gay Marriage? Why did President Bush drop the idea of a Constitutional Amendment aganst Gay Marriage as soon as the election was over?

    If a Gay person is interested in the advancement of Gay Rights and the Right to Gay Marriage, is it in the best interests of avoiding generating fears in possible voters, to avoid public displays of affection with a same sex partner?

    Which Republicans can be trusted to advance Gay Rights, including the appointment of liberal judges and commisioners?

    I do not have good or clear ideas for educating the general public on Gay Issues, to alleviate backlash voting.

    Ideas? Suggestions? Corrections? Bashes?
     
  2. fantasien

    fantasien New Member

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    Well there are a lot of issues here. Finding trustworthy politicians, commisioners and judges. My father is a Christian right. And i have a troublesome time listening to what he has to say about the subject and his rightist views. AS well as when it comes to something like Michael Savage. i really don't agree with what they have to believe or say. I think that it is a view or opinion that denies human rights.

    Every one person is a human. nothing can deny us that, not even god denies us. See, when it comes to an individual, they are still human, and should not be rejected as a "nomal" human being just as a stright person would be considered normal. Equality is something i am all about. And when a nothing living person is denyed something that they have the rights to do say, or think, then whoever does, is a person who is shameful, and disrespectful, and most of all, not human themselves.

    If these people where human, they would come to understand that gay and bi people are human, as well as any other kind of human being that is living and therefore, themselves are a human that has different beliefs and opinions, and a different body structure, and sexual differences as they do. after all, isn't that what America is, FREEDOM! i'm sorry, but if you call this freedom, phfff....someone must really get off those drugs!

    I guess you could say that i am a humanitarian that believes in not holding back on sexual ideas and to live equally amongst eachother. there are a lot of other things that i would go into but i'm having a hard time placing them in the right context. So i will just leave it at that. I believe that i am myself a bi curious male. I havn't expirienced a male in bed yet, but i have online. And i enjoyed pretty well. I think that we should be able to let go of our inhibitions, and get rid of christianity and chatholicism.

    Why i say to get rid of religion, is that in todays world, religion has been used to hold up humanity and warp them into zombies who have no humanity in them at all. One last point i would like to make, which is kind of off topic, is that, "If we weren't supposed to be sexualy fueled human beings, then God wouldn't have given us reproductive organs. And thats something that God would never want us to hold back on."
     
  3. Logger

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    Thanks for your thoughtful post.

    More religions than just the Christian Right seem to be unsupportive of Gay Pride,Gay Marriage and Gay Rights. Many Unitarian Universalist churches attempt to be welcoming to Gay or Bi-Sexual members. The Metropolitan Church of Christ is totally open Gay, if I remember the church name correctly.

    Blessings
     
  4. DJ & TJ

    DJ & TJ New Member

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    I will no doubt cop some flak for my views here.

    As a Christian myself, I find the whole concept of gay discrimination disgusting.

    The new testament has 2 main principles extolled by Jesus.

    Love god with all your heart.
    Love others as you love yourself.

    The other key principles are,

    Obey the law of the land.
    Spread the good news.

    How can a christian truly be demonstrating love towards another when they judge and condemn others, disregard the law of the land by discriminating against gays and spread messages of fear and hate.

    Jesus said basically nothing in regards to homosexuality.

    For those christians who wish to walk around judging others, the position has already been filled.
     
  5. Logger

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    Dear DJ andTJ,

    I think you have captured the important essence of Christian principles. I would add forgiving trespasses.

    Thanks for your thoughtful post. The New Testament does contain critical words about homosexuality. They are in Paul's letters encouraging the faithful Christians. Romans is a letter to a congregation of Christians under Roman rule. Roman Culture encouraged homosexuality as something cute. So there was a difference between the Christians under Roman rule, because those Cristians did not particularly show off, or brag about, homosexual exploits. Paul was merely pointing out a difference between Christians and Romans, pointing out the frivolity of the Roman approach to homosexuality, rather than trying to make a criticism of true homosexual feelings.

    Paul used to persecute Christans, them joined them. After spending some months in jail, Paul no longer wrote about homosexuality in a mocking manner. Timothy, written by Paul after being imprisoned, is practically a love leter recommending a man to other congregations. Paul at least became more sensitive to gay rights after jail, if he did not actually turn the corner.

    But some Gay activities are done with the idea of upsetting straights. When I was raising my kids, I tried to keep my kids from being exposed to the Gay culture, so they would not be influenced by my rebelliousness, and beliefs in Gay Rights. Many families may believe in Gayu Rights, but may wish to let the children grow up with miminal influene from Gay ideas.

    Ideas should be more fully thought out, but it might be in the best interests of the Gay community to minimize straight motivation for backlash laws by the majority, to develop a code of ethics for avoiding kicking up a backlash in straights.

    Blessings
     
  6. DJ & TJ

    DJ & TJ New Member

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    Hi Logger,

    In following the 2nd principle "Love others as you love yourself" there is no need to forgive trespasses as you have not held onto the offense in the first place.

    In terms of the first chapter of the book of Romans, whilst many christians latch onto a couple of verses with which to denounce homosexuality, the issue which Paul is relating to is actually regarding idolatry amongst the non-hebrews (gentiles). You need to put the region of that time into context. There were many religions throughout the region with polytheistic Roman, Egyptian, Pagan and Greek gods.

    The religion which appears to be quoted more often than not (and generally as an abomination) is actually the religion of Baal. This is the religion which was practiced at Sodom and Gomorrah as well as much of Canaan prior to the arrival of the Hebrew nation. It involved idols, human sacrifice (also called "passing through the fire" when murdering your own children), temple prostitutes and basically consensual and non-consensual sex / rape with men, women, children and animals. It is the overall scope of this religions practises which violated many of what later became the 10 commandments. This also fits as being the situation which Paul was referring to in Romans.

    The anti-gay movement suggest that in Genesis 19, Sodom (which the English word Sodomy was derived from around 1500 not earlier) and Gomorrah were destroyed because they were homosexuals. After all they wanted to have sex with the angels which god had sent.

    They seem to fail to realise that,

    Sodom and Gomorrah were both practicing cultures of the Baal religion.

    Having sex with an angel could not be considered a homosexual situation unless you were also an angel.

    The decision to destroy the place was already made before the angels were sent.

    The angels were sent to see if they could find 10 good people in the city. (meaning non-Baal worshippers) This would have saved the cities.

    Lot offerred his 2 virgin daughters to the mob to save the angels. Why would he do this if the mob were all homosexuals? If they were all homosexuals, wouldn't he offer himself?

    The translation of the word "men" in Gen 19:4 is actually incorrect. It should read "people". This one incorrect word changes the entire scope of what is actually written in the Greek translation of the Septuagint (Hebrew old testament) which is what was used in the translation to all modern english versions.
     
  7. Logger

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    I don't recall being aware of the religion of Baal. Are there any books describing that religion?

    I thought the Old Testament was written in Hebrew, and translated from the Hebrew into English. The New Testament was written in Greek, in around year 200, and translated from Greek to English. You are saying the Hebrew of the Old Testament was translated into Greek, and then into English?

    My reading of the english version of Sodom and Gamorah seems to be more about involuntary sex, rape really, rather than a discourse on what is wrong with Homosexuality. There is no description that homosexuality, itself, is bad, nor any reasoning for any divine displeasure with homosexaulity. A criticism of Homosexuality can be inferred from the Biblical passages favoring procreation, but that seems to be a little stretch to me.

    I was thinking that the gay practices of going to Gay Bars, and avoiding engaging in same sex dancing, except in the privacy of clearly accepting locations and establishments, seems like an unwritten code that avoids activating heterosexual parenting phobias.

    What I only read a few years ago, was the Moses was raised in the religion of Egypt, which had 34 principles. I read the Egyptian 34 princples, and did not seem much similarity with the 10 Commandments, but the 34 Egyptian principles may have been the seeds for the 10 Commandments.

    Blessings
     
  8. fantasien

    fantasien New Member

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    I have found many holes int the christian bible that directly discriminate against the other.

    One line says, " Love others as you love yourself. God has created us equal."

    The other line in another line says, " to be homosexual is wrong..blah blah blah." (something like that)

    Ok, if Our Great Father accepts us as equal and if we should love others, then why are we against gay rights of certain people.

    Michael Savage the radio talk show guy, believes that the gay culture and gay men and marriage of gay persons is mocking our stright christian way of life. well, what a lot of these people don't understand is that I understand from a book that i read on Arousal, that gay Relationships and gay/lesbian persons have the same mentl, emotion, and phisycal issues as a stright relationship/marriage has. the only difference is is that they are attracted to the Same sex.
     
  9. DJ & TJ

    DJ & TJ New Member

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    This may be straying too far from the scope of this forum, so admin feel free to delete.

    The antiquity of the worship of the god or gods of Baal extends back to the 14th century BCE among the ancient Semitic peoples, the descendants of Shem, the oldest son of Biblical Noah. Semitic is more of a linguistic classification than a racial one. Thus, people speaking the same or similar languages first worshiped Baal in his many forms. The word Baal means "master" or "owner". In ancient religions the name denoted sun, lord or god. Baal was common a name of small Syrian and Persian deities. Baal is still principally thought of as a Canaanite fertility deity. The Great Baal was of Canaan. He was the son of El, the high god of Canaan. The cult of Baal celebrated annually his death and resurrection as a part of the Canaanite fertility rituals. These ceremonies often included human sacrifice and temple prostitution.

    The worship of Baal extended from the Canaanites to the Phoenicians who also were partially an agricultural people. Both Baal and his cohort Ashtoreth, or Astarte, who is equivalent to the Greek goddess Aphrodite, were both Phoenician fertility symbols. Baal, the sun god, was fervently prayed to for the protection of livestock and crops. Priests instructed the people that Baal was responsible for droughts, plagues, and other calamities. People were often worked up into great frenzies at the prospects of displeasing Baal. In times of great turbulence human sacrifices, particularly children, were made to the great god Moloch.

    Since the Phoenicians also were superb ship builders the religion and cults of Baal spread throughout the Mediterranean world. The worship of Baal was found among the Moabites and their allies Midinites during Moses' time. It was also introduced to the Israelites.

    The religion of the god Baal was widely accepted among the ancient Jews, and although it was put down at times, it was never permanently stamped out. Kings and other royalty of the ten Biblical tribes worshiped the god. The ordinary people ardently worshipped this sun god too because their prosperity depended on the productivity of their crops and livestock. The god's images were erected on many buildings. Within the religion there appeared to be numerous priests and various classes of devotees. During the ceremonies they wore appropriate robes. The ceremonies included burning incense, and offering burnt sacrifices, occasionally consisting of human victims. The officiating priests danced around the altars, chanting frantically and cutting themselves with knives to inspire the attention and compassion of the god.

    In the Bible Baal is also called Beelzebub, or Baalzebub, one of the fallen angels of Satan.
     
  10. DJ & TJ

    DJ & TJ New Member

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    Septuagint - What is It?
    Septuagint (sometimes abbreviated LXX) is the name given to the Greek translation of the Jewish Scriptures. The Septuagint has its origin in Alexandria, Egypt and was translated between 300-200 BC. Widely used among Hellenistic Jews, this Greek translation was produced because many Jews spread throughout the empire were beginning to lose their Hebrew language. The process of translating the Hebrew to Greek also gave many non-Jews a glimpse into Judaism. According to an ancient document called the Letter of Aristeas, it is believed that 70 to 72 Jewish scholars were commissioned during the reign of Ptolemy Philadelphus to carry out the task of translation. The term "Septuagint" means seventy in Latin, and the text is so named to the credit of these 70 scholars.

    Septuagint - Influence on Christianity
    The Septuagint was also a source of the Old Testament for early Christians during the first few centuries AD. Many early Christians spoke and read Greek, thus they relied on the Septuagint translation for most of their understanding of the Old Testament. The New Testament writers also relied heavily on the Septuagint, as a majority of Old Testament quotes cited in the New Testament are quoted directly from the Septuagint (others are quoted from the Hebrew texts). Greek church fathers are also known to have quoted from the Septuagint. Even today, the Eastern Orthodox Church relies on the Septuagint for its Old Testament teachings. Some modern Bible translations also use the Septuagint along side Hebrew manuscripts as their source text.

    In essence what we have today as the 39 books of the bibles old testament was originally written in ancient hebrew, then translated into ancient greek, then translated into a very young english language in the early 1600s.
     
  11. DJ & TJ

    DJ & TJ New Member

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    I can understand that some parenting phobias exist. I have 3 youngsters myself. My concern relates to how do I explain things to my kids so that they don't grow up discriminating against others. It's not just homosexuality that I'm talking about. It's sexuality as a whole, family breakups, why does Johnny have no daddy, why does Suzie have 2 mummies, drugs, pregnancy, religion.

    I don't believe that segregation is the answer. However, I don't necessarily come out to people and blantantly state my heterosexuality just to see their reaction. It is this approach which can do harm to the gay rights movement.
     
  12. DJ & TJ

    DJ & TJ New Member

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    When single verses are taken out of context to the entire message it is quite easy to find contradictions. When you take the entire message in context, there are none.

    Unfortunately, more often than not it is actually the uninformed christian who is the one taking the verse out of context.

    Well, I would disagree.

    To me marriage is a sacred and religious ceremony. Marriage without faith is simply a contract. This viewpoint however, does not give me the right to attempt to stop other consenting adults from entering into a contract.

    Is he equally against people getting married dressed as clowns? That would be mocking wouldn't it. Let's ban clown marriages!

    Seriously, what someone else does in their marriage, choice of marriage partner or marriage ceremony has no impact whatsoever on my beliefs on the sanctity of my marriage. If Mr Savage believes that his own marriage will be anything less as a result of homosexuals being married themselves then he should seek marriage counselling. (but not from someone who is not in a successful marriage)
     
  13. DJ & TJ

    DJ & TJ New Member

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    A key scripture which jumps out at me is,

    The first part of Heb 13:4
    "Marriage is honorable among all and the marriage bed undefiled"
     
  14. Logger

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    Dear DJ and TJ,

    Thanks for the information on Baal Religion. Would the Egyptian Book of the Dead be a Baal text? I don't recall the Book of the Dead commenting on homosexuality in any definitive manner.

    Since many who aspire to be Chrstian Leaders take the position that the Bible is against homosexuality, how can those supporting Gay Rights, find common ground with anti-Gay Christian leaders?

    Blessings
     
  15. Logger

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    Dear Fantasien,

    There are a number of layers of meanings that are within the range of maenings of Christianity.

    I personally use the Strong's Concordance of the Bible, to identify all the passages that discuss a particular concept. I say a Strong's Concordance at the local library. This relates to your observation that the Bible seems to have different advice for similar situations in different sections of the Bible. Who is the one to judge what is the true meaning of Christianity?

    I feel that I take a responsible apprach to the study of reliion, so I feel comfortabel deciding for myself what principles are Christian.

    I may read the English version, I may go back to the Hebrew or Greek words, to understand what the writers of the Bible actually said. If something seems wrong tome, that a person aspiring to be a Christian Leader states as a Chrsitian Principle, I look behind what he is saying. There is also the reality of what most people identifying themselves as Christians, actually believe is an important Christian Principle.

    The Christan Right has individuals aspiring to be Christian Leaders, who bash Gays, and work against family planning options. My readings and studies of the Bible reveal that the Anti-Gay and Anti-Choice principles have little support in the Christian Scrptures.

    The Unitarian Church seeks to embody positive religious teachings, and endorse family planning, while accepting members regardless of sexual preferences.

    Blessings
     
  16. fantasien

    fantasien New Member

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    Thanks for that last piece of input Logger. The only point is in general, that some parts, as u mentioned above about the diffference between Christian Leader states as a Chrsitian Principle, Is that there are people who don't really seem to practice truely. Others practice for a full understaning of Christianity and other religons and strive to believe and understand what is true in the religion of Christianity and not just politics. Am I understanding your point here?