Oral veto (long post)

Discussion in 'General Sex Discussion' started by bouledoux, Sep 3, 2006.

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  1. bouledoux

    bouledoux New Member

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    Hello,

    I’m new on this forum and I don’t know for sure if as long a post as this is appropriate but I’ll give it a shot, anyway.

    I am 51, my wife 53. We’ve been happily married for more than 30 years. During that time, we've enjoyed a pretty active sex life. Oral sex, particularly mutual oral sex, had always been a part of that. A couple of years ago, however, my wife decided - out of the blue - that oral sex was off the menu! Her reasoning then was that the seepage of transparent fluid that comes out of my penis before ejaculating contains hormones that contribute to the growth of hairs on her chin.

    I ought to mention that I've only ejaculated in her mouth once, many years ago. I adored it, but I've always felt I wouldn't like to swallow my own or anyone else's semen, so why should she? Anyway, I feel pretty miserable not to have the prospect of her mouth around my penis anymore in my life, but I waited patiently, hoping she would reconsider.

    She didn’t, so one day, in desperation, I asked her why she wasn’t sucking my penis anymore. This was in early 2005. It wasn’t easy to ask, as we don’t as a rule talk much about the details of sex, preferring to let things happen ‘naturally’. Her answer started off as the previously mentioned ‘hairs on chin’ reasoning, but then turned into something else. Basically, it transpired that she found the practice ‘disgusting’ and ‘unnatural’; that it left a ‘nasty’ taste in her mouth; that I was ‘perverse’ and ‘obsessed’ to be wanting oral sex; etc, etc.

    Bringing the subject up seemed to open up something of a Pandora’s box. Over the succeeding eighteen months we’ve been through highs and lows, with periods of oral sex which she’s ‘forced’ herself to do, and periods when she’s been unwilling. One problem has been that when we do agree a compromise and don’t stick to it (such as oral sex every other Wednesday, and then after a few weeks a Wednesday comes and oral sex doesn’t transpire and I ask why and an argument ensues …) we seem to be continually back to square one.

    Of more concern recently has been her unwillingness to even be at the receiving end of oral sex: ie, cunnilingus. I like nothing more than to kiss and lick in and around her clitoris and vagina, which she has always given every impression of enjoying; but now she is calling that unnatural too, and intimating I am some sort of dirty weirdo for even wanting it.

    I have never had or wanted to have sex with anyone else since I married and I am completely uninterested in any form of what I would call oddball sex but I am coming to the conclusion that I am not prepared to spend the rest of my life without the enormous pleasure that I get from oral sex; and I resent being considered a pervert for wanting it. Whenever I make this point to my wife, suggesting that I might be tempted to try and find satisfaction elsewhere if I don’t get it at home, she accuses me of blackmail and coercion and of acting to end our marriage, which is the last thing I want.

    Her position is simple. She likes straightforward missionary position sex, which, if it doesn’t result in orgasm, doesn’t matter, since the times when it does are so pleasant for her they far outweigh the others. She finds any orgasm she gets from my finger or mouth to be far less enjoyable, and therefore not worth having. She suggests that since I enjoy both ‘normal’ and oral sex but she only enjoys ‘normal’ it’s appropriate for me to give oral up. She also feels that it’s unfair for me to get the pleasure of penetration twice (vagina and mouth) whereas she only gets it once (my tongue in her vagina doesn’t count as she doesn’t want it to be there and she claims it’s unpleasurable). In addition, she suggests that I indulge in cunnilingus for my rather than her pleasure. When I claim this is not the case and my pleasure mostly comes from her pleasure at receiving she says this can’t be true since she doesn’t want me to do it in the first place! I suggest that her body knows differently but she doesn’t agree!

    I’m at my wits end. I appreciate that in the light of other peoples’ more serious problems this might seem lightweight but I can assure anyone reading that it does matter to me a great deal. I believe a deeply satisfactory sex life is the absolute bedrock of a contented marriage and I’ve seen too many marriages fail because of this.

    I feel I need an objective viewpoint. Is it unreasonable of me to expect my wife to do to me (fellatio) and accept from me (cunnilingus) what until a couple of years ago she always had done, even if she doesn’t find them altogether to her taste any more? Or is it, as she claims, incumbent on me to give these practices up, even though I love them, because she is no longer interested?

    The pattern of the first twenty five of our married life was that cunnilingus happened at least twice as often as fellatio; and although the occasions when she gave me oral sex may have been partly 'pay back', there were plenty of times when she was on the receiving end and giving every appearance of enjoying it and never reciprocated and presumably never felt obliged to. I, for my part, thoroughly enjoy cunnilingus, regardless.

    It's true, my wife is menapausal, with hot flushes, various degrees of arousability, desire, etc; but I have to say she remains pretty open most of the time to my advances, although less likely to initiate herself, and I have no grounds for complaint, given the inherant difficulty of her hormonal circumstances, about our sex life in general. It's simply the oral aspect that is the problem.

    My wife is a lapsed Catholic and I do find myself wondering how much of her recent inclination to view oral sex as humiliating and degrading has to do with her upbringing. Recently, she saw a TV drama involving Catholic priests apparently getting young children in their charge to suck them off, which affected her deeply. I try to point out that I'm not a priest, she isn't a child, and it was only a film; but it's as if the desire to want that sort of satisfaction is at fault, no matter the circumstances.

    She also read a novel set in Afganistan involving adult males being fellated by younger, often helpless kinfolk, which again struck her as the strong forcing the hand of the weak in unnatural ways. I once made the mistake of mentioning a snippet of information I had gleaned from a novel I had read by a South African about how many African females had two or three of their front teeth knocked out so that they could give more agreable oral sex to their men. Anyway, this has provided her with more ammunition for her theory that men have forced women over the centuries to follow an essentially unnatural practice for their own gratification; which she no longer wants any part of.

    I suppose this may be true! I am physically stronger than she is and I am trying to persuade her to do something she says she doesn't want to do. I don’t, of course, use force, or threats, but I do plead.

    My biggest worry is that if I go along with the no oral sex prescription I'll look for it elsewhere. I already fantasise about this and desperation might make me desperate. No matter how I phrase this, when trying to warn my wife, it always comes out sounding like a threat to leave her.

    Possibly the most upsetting part of this entire scenario has been the ‘discussions’ we’ve had about what happens or has happened during our half lifetime of sex. The level of bitterness and anger that lies hidden in both of us has astounded me. I’m not at all sure how useful it’s been to allow these issues to be brought up! Two of the most strongly worded have been my conviction that my wife has seldom if ever done anything primarily with my pleasure in mind, such as prolonged manual or oral stimulation, which seems to me a reasonable thing to expect; and her conviction that I am so obsessed with my own pleasure during intercourse that I am preventing her from having an orgasm by delaying my own climax, when I had always thought I was doing this for her benefit.

    It would be good to hear someone say with some authority that my wife’s supposition concerning her chin hairs (which I have difficulty seeing even under a magnifying glass) was wrong. It would be better still to hear some candid views on the other reasons she gives for avoiding this practice. When my wife says she finds oral sex unnatural and, for her, degrading and humiliating, I simply don't know how to reply. I find it the complete opposite: loving, intimate, delightful, supportive.

    Has anyone any helpful ideas?


    Bouledoux
     
  2. Bluesy

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    I really think the best thing would be if the two of you talked to a marriage counselor. This sounds like something that isn't going to be resolved unless a mediator is present.

    It's unreasonable to expect anyone to perform any sex act if they don't want to, regardless of the circumstances. If you're desperate to experience fellatio again, there are toys that simulate oral sex. Other than that, I would seriously consider marriage counseling, even if you have to go alone.
     
  3. John Keel

    John Keel New Member

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    I'm with Dan Savage on this one. Marriage counselling makes certain assumptions that I can't support.

    My heart goes out to you, man. You're in an unbelievably tough situation and it sucks and none of your options are good.

    I'm not you and you have perspective I don't have. That being said, I've learned through a certain amount of bittersweet experience that I can rely on myself, and that the degree to which I lean on others is dependant on both their stability and their willingness to accept me as myself. I cannot lean on someone who does not give me emotional support, and in a relationship I cannot accept someone who does not give me sexual support.

    You have a tremendously tough row to hoe. Don't let anyone tell you different and don't accept it if anyone tries to diminish what you're going through.

    Good luck.
     
    #3 John Keel, Sep 4, 2006
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2006
  4. melicious

    melicious The Old Maid
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    Well, with the goal of being a marriage and family counselor, I wonder what you mean by that, John. I think even a few short meetings with a counselor might help really pinpoint where and why her opinion changed, and what compromises might be reached. From there it's your (you and your wife's) job to determine if you accept those compromises and explanations or not.
     
  5. bighiker2003

    bighiker2003 Banned

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    I don't think her opinion has ever changed.
    He said that he never cums in her mouth while the average
    woman would want to suck their husband OFF
    So she is just going through menopause and asserting
    the beliefs that she has always had (that sex is dirty)
    and using the hair on the chin as a crutch to support
    her beliefs.
    It sounds to me like you have never really had a very good sex life
    so don't expect much before she is done with menopause.
     
  6. melicious

    melicious The Old Maid
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    Point taken, Big. I see what you mean.

    As my husband and I inch closer and closer to the longer years of marriage (no longer newlyweds, but not quite yet married for twenty years) I do see how it is absolutely possible that she may have, for many years, participated in something that she really did not like. Going through menopause, and the life analysis that also seems to come at that time, it's completely possible that she's putting her foot down, so to speak...that she's saying "I did this for so long for your apparent pleasure, but I won't do it anymore!" Now, I am a huge fan of oral sex, giving and receiving. But it really is possible that she just really does not like it, and resents having given in for so long. Do I think you should feel like you have to go without it for the rest of your life because she doesn't like it? Not necessarily; I think you have some weighing of issues to do. Do I think she should feel compelled to participate in something she states she doesn't like, simply because she participated (perhaps willingly, perhaps grudgingly) in the past? No. These are the things we go through that make us determine how much we love the one we are with and how committed to them we are.
     
  7. Bluesy

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    Bighiker and Mel have made really good points. I would just like to add that the reason I think counseling would be the best course of action is that the wife is harboring this stockpile of resentment. It's a starting point, anyway. If she's had this aversion to oral all her life and is finally putting her foot down, it would be cathartic for her to express how the years of stockpiled anger and resentment have taken their toll to a professional, and a counselor could work with that and get a real dialogue going between the two of them. Working through difficult issues can strengthen the relationship. Things could end up better than they've ever been. Then perhaps, if she still isn't interested in oral sex, a sex therapist could help her work through her mental blocks. She would have to want to work through them, of course, but first she needs to get this resentment out of her system. No woman is going to want to do sexual favors for her man if she's carrying a grudge. Who knows where things would go from there. Never say never.

    A lot of women absolutely cannot tolerate the taste of cum, me included. The one and only time a guy came in my mouth I nearly vomited. So it isn't something all women can do. I didn't know at the time that there are ways to alter the flavor of cum and make it tasteless, or even sweet. It's not always a matter of wanting to.
     
  8. John Keel

    John Keel New Member

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    I believe that most therapeutic training for couples therapy gets it wrong. People simply aren't built to take their behavior modification through the conscious brain.

    It's do-able if a patient sees a therapist with the understanding that they're in cognitive therapy and that they want to change, but the dynamics of talking at someone and expecting psychologically benificial results are wrong for couples therapy. They're doubly wrong for this couple, one of whom is choosing to opt out of the relationship in a time-honored Catholic wife's way, by shutting down sexually and refusing to talk honestly about it. Couples therapy won't work with her. Behavior modification in general probably wouldn't, I think.

    This man is faced with some choices. His wife has made hers.
     
  9. Bluesy

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    But that's not really what happens during couple's counseling. Feelings are discussed, underlying issues are brought to the surface, the counselor walks them through constructive ways of communicating those feelings and reaching resolution. And generally the counselor will meet individually with both spouses to explore these things on a personal basis. I think perhaps you have a somewhat misguided idea of what marriage counseling is.

    A good counselor knows how to get the most reticent patient to open up, so the difficult part is convincing the spouse to show up. She doesn't want to discuss it with him at the moment because she isn't very happy with him. That doesn't mean she doesn't want to discuss it, period.
     
  10. melicious

    melicious The Old Maid
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    Thank you Bluesy. I do honestly believe that the job of the counselor is to facilitate communication and foster investigation.... I do not wish to be talked AT. A couple invites me into their relationship for a time so that we can all communicate with each other. I'm bustin' my rump in school so that the invitation into their relationship will bring about results...... the results THEY seek. Right now he is questioning things in his mind, and can't know exactly what she is thinking. There is his side and her side, and those two sides must come together.
     
  11. Rose

    Rose Resident Sexy Grandma
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    From a menopausal woman... (yeah - that's me) - this is a serious, and very real problem.
    To be married for 30+ years, and to be at an impasse, is almost unbearable!
    The "hair on the chin" is not a medically proven fact. Her hair is due to her own lack of estrogen. Period. Her accusations are unfounded.
    But, that said, she is saying volumes more. She does not like sucking and swallowing cum. I can testify to the fact that an older man's cum can be very strong and unappetizing. It has to do with his own 'change of life'. I very seldom swallow Thorn's cum, as it is very acidic. But he doesn't mind me sucking and allowing it to drip out my mouth and down my mouth.

    However, it sounds like yoiu and your wife have a few deeper problems. Religion is a very controlling substance, and I, too, have been captive to that, at an earlier point of my life. With 30 years under yoir belts, I believe that you have something that you can pull from, which will bring you to some common ground. it may take time, but it's worth it.

    You obviously love her. And I believe she loves you. Hold on to that --- and be everything you were when you met and fell in love. Early menopause is a passing phase. Thirty years of love and life is much MUCH deeper. Hang in there, hun!
    :rose
     
  12. Motley Fan

    Motley Fan New Member

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    I do not think she is being reasonable.

    I think counselling should be considered.

    It sounds to me like when she was younger she may have performed fellatio as an defiant act - an act that her Catholic upbringing would not have supported. But she still has those teachings buried deep down. The we have the philosophical issues related to oral sex. There is no doubt that some cultures used and continue to use fellatio as a sign of male dominance. That being said, many cultures have seen oral sex as a way of expressing deep feelings of love and desire for a mate.

    I'm Pretestant in my Christian beliefs and neither I nor my wife have ever had any spiritual hang-up with oral sex. Catholic teaching is different on this. Even for a lapsed-Catholic, these teachings are going to influence her views.

    Though I think counselling would be a good thing, there's no guarantee that she would pay heed to the opinions of the counsellor. Just make sure the counsellor is not Catholic!!!!
     
  13. bouledoux

    bouledoux New Member

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    Thanks for the replies and considered opinions, everyone.

    I've only just got back online after my original post and I need to think about what you've all said.

    We've discussed sex therapy but we both feel this will mean either my wife being persuaded to do what I want or me being persuaded to accept no more oral sex. Either way, it's a coin toss, and neither of us wants to lose!

    I've suggested a compromise, but since a compromise would have to include at least some oral sex, it doesn't seem like a compromise at all to her.

    I've done a bit of online searching and ours isn't an unusual problem. What bugs me a bit is that so many women who seem not to like giving oral do anyway because they know their bloke likes it.

    But what doesn't seem to be usual is women not liking to be at the receiving end of oral sex, as my wife has recently been. I want to give as much as receive; but she doesn't want to do either.

    Could this all be (late) menapausal? I certainly hope so!

    Bouledoux
     
  14. melicious

    melicious The Old Maid
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    Wow, tough situation. Yes this could all be menopausal and things could change tonight, tomorrow, or next week. And......... things might not. Even in the "compromise" you list..... she still loses....she is still forced, essentially, to do something that she does not wish to do, because you want to. THAT is where sex therapy can help.
     
  15. Motley Fan

    Motley Fan New Member

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    I still maintain that there are other issues here, deep issues probably from early influences combined with learning of misuses of the act in other cultures or situations.
     
  16. melicious

    melicious The Old Maid
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    Motley, I agree. That's why I think a sex therapist will help more than a compromise.
     
  17. bouledoux

    bouledoux New Member

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    Melicious, when you say:

    "Even in the "compromise" you list..... she still loses....she is still forced, essentially, to do something that she does not wish to do, because you want to. THAT is where sex therapy can help."

    Do you mean that one result of sex therapy might be that my wife finds she wants - really wants, without being 'persuaded' - to do something she didn't before?

    Couldn't she equally well find herself even less keen?

    And what about me? Mightn't I find I no longer want what I want now? (Although that would obviously solve things nicely!)

    I know nothing of how sex therapy works, but I'm looking in to it.

    Thanks again,

    Bouledoux
     
  18. melicious

    melicious The Old Maid
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    I mean through therapy she will be able to get to the root of the issue which is bothering her, something I suspect she hasn't shared completely with you. Then you can both get to how you really feel, and then move from there. What's the scary thing about therapy? It's that you might actually learn something very difficult or come to some very difficult decisions. You move to therapy when you are tired of being in the limbo inbetween. Right now there seems to be no easy or ultimately RIGHT solution to the problem, does there? Yep, she may find herself less keen. At that point we then discuss you and your feelings about that. You ultimately have two choices, to respect her and love her enough to accept her decision and thus find yourself no longer wanting what you want now because you understand and have compassion for her stance. Or, you can determine that your need for these sexual acts outweigh the time and commitment thus far, and seek the meeting of your needs elsewhere. I do not think any professional is going to offer the option of her providing oral even though she doesn't want to in order to keep you committed to her, but I may be wrong. EMT, help me here. Of course, the choices offered are quite premature, because the first thing that needs to be discussed and understood is her aversion to these sexual acts, and the reason she used to be willing to participate, but now is more hesitant than ever; what changed in her mind? That's very important.
     
  19. Jayce

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    I've always felt that whatever a man and woman share in the bedroom it is never perverse. It's one thing if you two are out at the mall and you keep whispering in her ear dirty things like man I can't WAIT until you swallow my load tonight... then that's perverse. But if you two are in the bedroom and it happens, fine.

    I guess that's how my girlfriend and I got over the few bumps in the road we've been in as far as love making goes. There were a few things that she felt "dirty" about and I was like... what's it matter? It's ME, your boyfriend here, and nobody else. Why would you ever feel dirty?
     
  20. melicious

    melicious The Old Maid
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    The thing is, it's not necessarily about who you are with, but what you have been taught in the past and what other reactions might have been. I had horrible guilt and shame having sex at all for the longest time, I would be in tears at the end and just be filled with shame, because I was taught to be ashamed of myself for being sexual. It took a long long time. It would be nice if it were as simple as not feeling wrong or dirty because of being with someone who proclaims to love you enough not to judge you. The problem with that is, for many of us, that someone who proclaimed to have loved us enough in the past made the initial judgements.
     
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