Oh look, another war started...

Discussion in 'The Lounge' started by AnonymousOne, Aug 10, 2008.

  1. AnonymousOne

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    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/aug/09/georgia.russia2

    Here is MY analysis(This can also be found on my blog, linked in my Signature):
    It's all about oil ...

    ... the war in Georgia that is.

    Right so, as the Olympics go on and everyone continues to rack up medals, there is a little war going on in Georgia, and no I don't mean the gang wars that happen in Atlanta. I mean this Georgia.

    Here is a link to a very detailed map of the oil pipelines in eastern Europe/Eurasia. (NOTE: Please Right-click and "Save As" on that link, it's a large PDF map.)

    Allow me to elaborate:
    Here is a general map (the orange portion is Georgia)
    [​IMG]
    Yes I know the countries are not labeled. Directly North of Georgia is the Russian Federation.

    Let's take a closer look shall we?
    [​IMG]
    I cropped and rotated this in Photoshop to give a similar view of the country as the map above.

    If you looked at the PDF map I have linked above, you'll see this is simply a blown-up version of that map. The dark green lines are oil pipelines, the more thick the line, the larger the pipeline. The red line with yellow hashes through it is a natural gas pipeline under construction.

    This is not about national determination or South Ossetia seceding from Georgia, this is about Russia playing power politics to regain control of former provinces (formerly held by the USSR) which have everything to lose if Russia gets control of those pipelines. Most of them have some oil and it plays an important part of their economies. Losing access to the Georgian pipelines will severely hamper their countries.
     
  2. cbrmale

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    I don't think it's about oil, it's more about atrocities against ethnic Russians living in Georgia. One of the legacies of the Soviets was ethnic Russians living everywhere, and for many generations too.
     
  3. AnonymousOne

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    Right well, you're wrong. Georgian officials are claiming that the Russian military is seizing portions of the pipeline to "secure the regional infrastructure".

    Come on are you blind? Putin is a Russian imperialist and is trying to use this to give Russia the ability to restrict the supply of oil out of the former Soviet Bloc. This forces the EU to start catering to a country that has essentially been a paper tiger for years.

    This is not a mercy mission, former heads of the KGB aren't capable of those, it's a tactical political move. If you don't believe me, look at the timing! While America is up to its ears in a mess in Iraq and everyone is watching the Games, Russia foments discord and moves the troops in.
     
  4. FlirtyChick

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    A-1's right, you know. See this is HIS specialty, CBR..... :) Take some time to listen and digest....
     
  5. AnonymousOne

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    Russia marching on capital

    Hey look, Russia's not just 'securing' the break away provinces ... they want to secure the rest of Georgia too.
     
  6. cbrmale

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    Surely there are contradictory signs. Georgian officials 'claim' Russian troops are securing the pipeline (which they may well be doing), while Russian officials 'claim' that the break-away groups were committing atrocities against ethnic Russians. The general feel of the media here is that it's about the Russians, not the oil.

    When I discuss things face-to-face, I do so in a mature and intelligent matter. Writing things from a distance is more artificial, but there is no reason not to write in a mature and intelligent manner as well. If you were talking to a colleague and blurted out 'right well you're wrong', you would run a fair chance of getting flattened. You're 22; at that age you should no better.

    So think about it, because there was no excuse for rudeness.
     
  7. FlirtyChick

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    Ok, I cannot stand it! He is not being RUDE, he is being INTELLIGENT. Why cannot you stop being so confrontational for 30 seconds and be open to another viewpoint other than your own! Don't slam A-1 because he is smarter than you in many areas, but embrace his maturity and intelligence and learn from him. You constantly take so much away from the REAL issues by trying to point the spotlight at yourself! It is not about the opinion of the media, because that is a BULLSHIT opinion. It is about the oil, and power, and entering into war for the wrong reasons. In the US,colleagues take " you are wrong" with a grain of salt. We are mature here; we are open to other opinions. This young man knows what he speaks of, and you should listen!!! I have never seen you be fair with anyone on this forum. If it is not your opinion, then it is wrong. Thank goodness for the 22 year old with maturity and wisdom on his side. In his facts I trust!
     
  8. Hot Wheels

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    To be honest, I can see both sides.....and to me, the most worrying thing is that Georgia has firm allies with both the USA and the British. Now since they are being invaded by the Russians, if push comes to shove, this could easily have far reaching implications for the rest of us:nerv
    If it were not for the current media focus on the Olympics in China.....this would be front page headlines around the world.:ugh
     
  9. AnonymousOne

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    *shrugs* If you think it's about atrocities then I'd like to hear your explanation on the timing of the Russian invasion of a sovereign power. In fact the Georgian president has, as of the last reports I read, fled the capital. Even the News media in Britain is calling this a land grab.

    A sovereign power by the way that was until just recently being considered for NATO membership. NATO membership would give the US the Ability to expand its missile defense shield into those countries, effectively putting the brakes on any additional Russian expansion and eliminating Russian control over their former Soviet Bloc members.

    In fact I have former classmates that work in various departments of Washington D.C. Several e-mail conversations essentially say that the US intelligence community says this is a land grab that is designed to destabilize the region and a country hoping to be a NATO member.
     
  10. cbrmale

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    This is a problem, because (and some of my countrymen will back me on this), such an utterance (you're wrong, are you blind?) at work here would lead to a reprimand or possible dismissal for bullying, and in the street it may go further. And I kid you not, if I were to say something like that to a work colleague and be overheard, I would be in serious, serious trouble.

    Back to Georgia. I don't know if it is oil or not, but the majority of media opinion yesterday in the Nation's capital was that it was about the Russians. The timing cuts both ways to me. If Russia takes on a small country either for oil, or for citizens of Russian ancestry, then it makes sense to do it now.

    A-1 may be right, although I am not so sure about US intelligence agencies and the reliability of information therein. As to Hotwheels' comment, I don't see this heading towards World War Three.

    There is one thing that I think the majority of us will be in agreement with, and that is the invasion of Iraq was a tragic blunder of astronomical proportions. It was done on a lie, it has significantly weakened the US (both morally and militarily), and it made it okay to invade a sovereign country on whatever trumped-up excuse.
     
  11. cbrmale

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    And another war ending...

    Having driven the Georgian army out of the break-away regions, the Russian army have paused and a withdrawal has been announced. And so, it seems, it was about harrassment of ethnic Russians, and not about oil pipelines.

    My experienced, borne of the decades, is not to be dogmatic. Because, if one is wrong, one ends up with egg on face. Dogmatic is 'Right well, you're wrong' and 'Come on are you blind?', as a response to my opinion 'I don't think...'.

    A-1, when I was your age I did my first big overseas journey. I was unattached at the time, so I moved around South-East Asia and into China (Guangzhou and Shanghai) and into South Korea, all on my own. Look at my age, and you will see I was one of the very, very first tourists to China. During my travels I met a few people, had a few lovers, and kept my eyes and ears open to local cultures and values. It was good for me, because getting off the tourist trail and living (and loving) as I did opened my perspective beyond an Anglo-Western-Christian view of life. Doing the same thing as a tourist staying at various Hiltons would not have been as effective.

    Since then I have done much travel, and always the same way, always as a local. Staying in an African village in the savannah with distant relatives of my wife, to staying in an apartment in Montemarte in Paris (heading downstairs each morning to the boulangerie to buy some fresh baguettes to go with our coffee) and many other places (the flat just south of Brixton in London - oh my God!).

    I think you would gain a lot from getting out of the blogs and conspiracy theories, and get out into the rest of the world and absorb some broader perspectives on life. I did it when I was your age, and I followed that up with much more travel, and it made me a better man.

    But you can only gain if you do it with an open mind.
     
  12. Puss_in_boots

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    Oh, for cryin' out loud! :eyes

    I'm seriously tempted to change the name of this topic to, "Cbrmale and AnonymousOne attempt to determine who has the bigger cock."

    I realize that this is the "off topic" forum, but this is a sex forum, not a politics forum. I don't believe this is an appropriate place for discussions of world politics.

    This is especially not the place for the kind of immature one-up-man-ship that certain forum members love engaging in.

    A1 and Cbrmale, this may come as a shock to you but neither of you are always right, and neither do you know everything.

    Deal with it.