Is there a connection between homophobia and misogyny?

Discussion in 'General Sex Discussion' started by Barbwire, Jun 27, 2008.

  1. Barbwire

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    I don't know where I stand on this topic, but I thought it was an interesting read, nonetheless.

    http://atheism.about.com/b/2005/05/...momma_100_SKD&terms=homophobia+and+mysogonist

    I found this quote to be particularly interesting..

    "Men who freak out over men being together in a romantic/sexual relationship freak out because for them, it all comes down to their own fear of being someone's butt-boy. Which would be really humiliating and would turn a man into something truly loathsome--a woman.

    The fear of being made "a woman" by another man will send an otherwise shallow and apathetic man into a letter-writing, Focus on the Family-contributing, Republican-voting lunatic. Show me a man who hates gay males and I'll show you a man who despises women. "

     
  2. HardRocker

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    I might have some deep hidden fear of being someone's butt-boy, but I don't think it would make me feel like I had turned into a woman; I think it's more likely it might temporarily turn me into a revenge killer. Then maybe no-one else would want me to be their sweetheart.:shrug
     
  3. HardRocker

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    I guess I didn't answer the original question. Hmmm, probably a lot less B&W than the article broached. I wouldn't make a sweeping conclusion like that. Friday night, further thought on the topic needed.
     
  4. cbrmale

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    I am turned-off by the thought of all-male sex, but not because of a misogynist attitude. For me the male body (including my own) is not a thing of attraction at all! Given my sexual cue (like many men) is visual, then contemplating two men together is a very unattractive thought. For me, beauty and sexual excitement comes from a woman who's looked after herself, and the big turn-ons are those parts of femininity that are the opposite of us men: hips, bottom, shapely legs, breasts, smooth skin and so on.

    The other thing I appreciate with femininity is personality, especially the way women are often calmer and more patient. While there are abberations, I can't recall many wars and acts of mass violence started by or perpetrated by women, it's just not their style. Too often women end up as the victims of men's uncontrolled impulses, but rarely do women iniate or perpetrate cruelty for crueltys sake.
     
  5. Kanto

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    If the prospect of becoming a woman is the primary reason for men to hate gay men, then wouldn't gay men hate gay men as much as straight men? The only men who enjoy the prospect of being a woman are transsexuals. Even homosexual men don't want to be women, they want to be men who love other men.

    Not that there's anything wrong with being a woman, far from it. But the average guy, hetero or homo, dom or sub, generally likes being a guy in their relationships. And enjoying being a guy is not the same thing as hating women.

    The authors interests are fairly clear. He even drops "Republican" and "Focus on the Family" hit-words into his article to draw in people who might remotely agree/disagree with him.
     
  6. Bluesy

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    Wow...there's some food for thought. I never would've drawn that conclusion, myself, but it makes sense. The biggest homophobes I've met/heard of are usually sexists, as well. The more small-minded and assholish the man, the more prejudiced he is...at least this has always been my experience.

    I think your average penis-skittish guy is, however, merely a victim of cultural homophobia (a lasting legacy courtesy of Judeo-Christian prejudice against homosexuals). If you want a non-sexual example of just how deep it runs, just look at how often the word "gay" is used pejoratively: "You're so gay." "That's gay."

    Debunked. There have been numerous studies (the most recent one I'm familiar with was referenced in a May Scientific American article...which I'd be happy to link you to, if you'd like :)) demonstrating that women possess the exact same capability for sexual arousal through visual stimuli. Women are socially conditioned to eschew sexual visual stimuli (it's a "masculine" activity, "women aren't visual" is a message that is consistently reinforced--call it brainwashing, if you will, because repeated exposure to cultural messages has the same effect on the psyche--something that "good girls" don't use, etc.) while men are encouraged by their peers and society, starting in adolescence, to embrace the use of pornography. For centuries female sexuality has not only gone unacknowledged, it's been actively discouraged...hence the whole "sexual revolution" of the 60's when women finally began to lay claim their fundamental human right to be sexual creatures. It's going to take a helluva lot more time to overturn these very deeply ingrained stereotypical fallacies. Also, it's been proven that the majority of women aren't nearly as enthused about porn as men because of the misogynistic content of about 90% of mainstream porn. Does it really come as a surprise that women don't get off on watching their gender being treated like shit in the bedroom? It certainly doesn't surprise me...it's, in part, the reason I never got into porn until my mid-thirties.

    Now that's misogynistic, willfully overlooking the centuries of social and familial personality conditioning that men and women have endured under patriarchal rule. Women were not allowed to be boisterous, aggressive, crude, etc., up until practically the end of the last century, and rigid gender roles are still reinforced in society today.

    And that wouldn't have anything to do with the fact that there are far more penises in positions of power than vaginas, would it? The fact that more often than not governments are male-dominated institutions couldn't possibly be a vital factor in that equation...sure. Or military power, for that matter. The military is still a "boy's club" that is subtly, if not overtly, hostile towards women.

    Your sexist colors are showing, dear.
     
  7. Puss_in_boots

    Puss_in_boots Adminatrix
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    How many times have you heard men say to one another in a playfully (or sometimes not) derisive way: "You throw like a girl!" or "You hit like a girl!" Then of course the target of this derision has to prove his masculinity by beating the crap out of someone, thereby proving "he's a man."

    For many men, acting even the slightest bit "feminine" is the absolute worst thing they can be. So, it doesn't surprise me at all to hear that the root of the fear of homosexuality is the fear of having one's masculinity stripped away.
     
  8. Dreama

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    Yeah, we discussed exactly this in my Human Sexuality course. It's really sad that people still use sexist phrases like this to badger male children into feeling emasculated. We watched a documentary on this in relation to professional wrestling. It was really disturbing, especially since I'd never ever watched wrestling before.
     
  9. BassDude

    BassDude New Member

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    Interesting thread. I'm comfortable enough with my masculinity to wear one of my daughter's Barbie band-aids if that's all that's available. Does that make me "gay"? :D

    I'm definitely not a "macho guy", but that doesn't mean I'm not masculine. I grew up mostly around women (mother, grandmother, aunts, mostly female cousins), and I know that it's impacted my perspective on quite a few things and shaped my personality to a certain degree. Half of my closest friends are female, and the other half are men that have at least some minor feminine quality about them (typically, kind-hearted and gentle folks). I think having a kind heart and being gentle with people is generally perceived as a feminine quality, wouldn't you agree? But looking at myself and the two other fellows I'm referring to, I don't see any of the three of us lacking any masculinity. We definitely look and are perceived as masculine...we act "like men", meaning mature adults, not adolescent boys (well, OK...maybe sometimes we act like teenagers. ;)). If someone calls me a "girlie-man", I actually take that as a compliment. :D In fact, I pretty much feel like myself and a few others are awefully good examples of "gentlemen". I wouldn't change myself at all in this regard.

    I'm definitely not a misogynist...I love women! I'm definitely not a homophobe either. In fact, I had a room-mate in college for a while who "came out of the closet" and accepted/admitted he was gay. He asked if I was OK with that since he was my room-mate...I told him I was fine with it, and truly meant that. (Although just to make my stance clear, I did joke that I would kick his ass if I ever woke up with a hangover and a condom hangin' out of my butt! :eek :D) So...er...um...I'm not sure if that validates or invalidates the topic, actually. :lol

    Anyway, if some macho brick-head with testosterone overload wants to think I'm gay, I couldn't care less...while he's busy picking a bar-fight, I'll be busy teasing and tantilizing the woman he "owns". :brow

    BD
     
  10. BassDude

    BassDude New Member

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    Ya know, this reminds me of something comical that I think has probably happened twice over the past 15 years or so. I hug everyone (especially women!:brow)...I'll even hug a guy that I really like. :eek (That's right...c'mere Ninja :D) When you hug another guy in some social gathering (even though it's the "guy hug"), occasionally some homophobic fellow will comment something along the lines of "faggot" or similar. (IIRC, this has happened twice over the past 1.5 decades.) It's then just comical to watch the women (wife, female friends, etc.) who know me tear into him...all I have to do is step back and let them chew him up and spit him out, I don't even have to respond to the insult. "He's not gay, he's a gentleman you jerk!" or "He's not gay, he's a really sweet man...why don't you pay attention and learn something", or some similar comment as that. Talk about watching the self-appointed alpha-dog tuck his tail and run yelping...seeing some queer-fearin' meat-head get his ass ripped by the very women he is trying to impress is just....um....rewarding. ;) (As you can probably gather, I'm quite fond of people who are humble and "real"...totally pathetic is...well...pathetic...and pretentious, over-inflated ego's just make me want to get out my darts. :cool We're all just people, and we're all in this thing called "life" together, ya know?)

    BD
     
  11. cook74

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    Sure does you sexy hunk of gayhood :brow

    :p

    I'm just fucking around... Even though I have had gay friends ever since I was a young teen I have still acted the macho in front of many other friends/associates. Playing Rugby League as a teen, I wasn't about to tell my mates, that I also did theater with a couple of really lovely gay boys. Neither was I going to tell the guys in the PCYC I was boxing with, that some of the workmates that I drank with were actually lovers.

    I have loved my past gay friends (and miss their presence in my life) and I love the friendships that I have with my current friends that happen to be gay (Sometimes I think that they like my wife more...maybe I am just jealous? LOL)

    Although I digressed there was a point I had to make. That was although I am not a homophobe or sexist, there still are times in a man's life when he might have to act like he is macho.

    Am I bad?
     
    #11 cook74, Jun 28, 2008
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2008
  12. Joe

    Joe
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    I don't think I'm homophobic, but I don't suppose many class themselves as such. If I see two gay guys kissing it does bother me. I don't care if they're gay, I just don't want to see it. I played contact sports in high school, including several years as a wrestler. That kind of close contact didn't bother me, but outside sports I don't like a guy touching me other than a handshake. No hugging, thank you, and if you kiss me I'll likely pop you one. So, am I homophobic?

    But I love women. I just love everything about them -- all women -- even those who piss me off. *LOL*
     
  13. BassDude

    BassDude New Member

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    Yes, you are cook...[BD summons all the ladies of :sf to get their whips and proceed]
     
  14. cook74

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    You don't accept a hug from a male friend?

    My brother in law and my father in law kiss on the cheek when they greet. (100% Blockey Aussie types they are too...very close family structure),and in Russia, kissing another male on both cheeks is considered the same as a hand shake.

    Personally, I love it when a close friend offers themselves up for a hug. It brings us closer together, I did it tonight when my newly married friend who came back from overseas and it was my first chance to congratulate him. That touch is a form of intimacy that my associates and I don't share, it is just between me and my close friends, and it makes the gesture that much more important.

    My most homophobic mates were forced to hug me at my my wedding. Handshakes were reserved for people I wasn't very close to.
     
  15. LPjammin

    LPjammin New Member

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    There's probably...


    ...something to all of that, though I'd caution against making blanket statements about just about any subject or issue. There is no doubt that being called 'gay' or 'queer' or 'fag' or any of the others is normally a good and easy way to start a fight amongst younger males and references to 'being Bubba's bytch' aren't exactly designed to infer that you'll be playing chess together.

    But, once males get past our late teens/early 20's, I just don't see the hostility towards gays nor the offense at being called 'gay' names or insults. Somewhere in the brain fusing process I suppose the self confidence and self awareness comes into play and it becomes a way of busting one another's chops. You know you're not gay, so, it's sticks and stones. This is especially true nowadays where our various 'awareness' drives have helped most people be pretty sure of the sexual desires pretty early on and much more accepting of differences. Wanna tic off a gay guy? Call him a 'closet breeder'. :lol

    Now, I think this can be taken to extremes and the use of words, expressions, like 'you pussy!' referring to someone who is being timid or unsure can be overblown and used as prima facie evidence of misogyny. However, I can't ignore the fact that a great many of our insults are gender references; pussy, queer, cocksucker, fuck you, suck my dick, stick it up your ass, so on and so forth.

    To me, it's just words and it seems to me it's more something for people who seek offense to get upset about than anything else. In short, there's a lot of dicks and numb nuts out there.

    I rest my case. :lol
     
  16. Puss_in_boots

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    I would argue that there's a difference between feeling uncomfortable watching two men tongue-kissing one another in public, and being homophobic. Homophobia is an intense irrational hatred/fear of homosexuality, whereas feeling uncomfortable is feeling uncomfortable.

    I feel slightly uncomfortable seeing a man and a woman "suck face" in public, so I imagine I'd feel the same way about seeing two men doing that. I guess I just feel that there's a time and a place for it, and that place is not the bus.
     
  17. igor

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    The first doesn't bother me too much, inappropriate though it may be, but the latter to me is just plain disgusting. I don't care what 2 people of the same sex do alone but I kinda think that doing it in public to draw attention is no different than giving one the finger.
     
  18. cook74

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    But Igor, kissing one another is a sign of love, it is a sight to be warmed by , not offended by...So what if it is a pair of cute guys that you wish you looked half as good as :p (sorry) or a guy and a girl...both couples are showing the same affection for each other.

    A closeness all humans need and want, gay or straight. My wife is not offended or grossed out when two women kiss each other, so I can't see why I would be disgusted by seeing a couple of guys having a tongue dance...
     
  19. Joe

    Joe
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    I won't refuse a hug from a guy, I just don't care for it. My younger brother is a hugger. I don't know where he got it from, but seeing him always means a couple hugs. My older brother is a hand shaker. I simply prefer that. I think it's just what you're used to. Some women always want a hug and a kiss. I'm not into that either -- a hug is fine, but kisses between friends isn't my cup-o-tea.
     
  20. cbrmale

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    One moment, it's women are visual when it comes to sex, and the next they have been conditioned not to be. It's doesn't matter that women could be as visual as men, the fact is, and you acknowledge it, that they are conditioned not to be. And it doesn't matter how you got there, it's the end-point that matters.

    I remember my high-school days when porn was freely available for the first time, mostly the rather quaint Danish porn of the time. It was in the newsagents, unsealed, available for browsing or purchase. It was like playboy, but more explicit. Not ugly like today, quite pleasant and a total turn-on to a 13 year-old! And despite the lack of social rules regarding this stuff, and despite it being not at all misogynistic, not many women seemed to be as interested as us men. Women were conditioned maybe, but conditioned against what? It was brand new, no rules at all, which is why it was so available and so easy to purchase.

    Personally, I regard the 1970s as the turning-point in feminism and sex. I am old enough to remember the 1960s, and feminism was a fringe thing that didn't really have an impact on the mainstream until later. It's like the 1960s love and sex openness of a few became the 1970s love and sex openness of us all. And having lived through the 1970s, while we had a lot of unattached sex, quality-wise it was just as terrible for women as what was previously. We weren't very good because we still didn't know. I learned via social psychology, and put what I learned into practice, but I was rare. I remember the most sexually explicit education books around at the time were quite vague about oral sex, implying it was a precursor to intercourse. So lots of random bonking in blissful ignorance.

    I've not yet studied a Matrilineal or Fratriarchal society where norms and values were not recognisably feminine. So even when women have power, they tend to use it in a different way. If I did not possess this knowledge, I would not be so in awe of women as I am now. I know that women can dominate society, and it's theorised by some that women formed society, but regardless of that I know that women can dominate society and do it in a more even-handed and less selfish way than men.

    What I know of society is not limited to Western-Christian values.

    Again you limit yourself to a modern American-Western-Christian view of things, especially with your comment about the American military being hostile towards women. I am thinking of the other society that I am very familiar with, and how things were when women had strong influence, or dominance in relatively recent times, versus now when they have little power or control over matters.
     
    #20 cbrmale, Jun 29, 2008
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2008