Inconsiderate Honesty

Discussion in 'Sex and Relationships' started by Logger, Aug 8, 2009.

  1. Logger

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    It seems that my relationship goes better, when I don't mention certain issues.

    Similarly, I have been hesitating to ask my wife to be more considerate, because she was being HONEST in her comments.

    So now I am taking the approach of coaching dishonesty. Lies, Denial, overlooking details, are part of what can make a relationship more consderate.

    Sexual issues are part of getting our feelings hurt.

    Neither my wife or I are that socially skilled. So I start this thread as part omy being more socially conscious.

    I made a mistake one time in being honest, by mentioning some roomates were making expressive noises we could hear through their door, wuring sex. I should have prfetended I could not hear their love making noises. Dishonest, but more considerate.

    The limiting factor I use, because counting on secrecy can lead to other problems, is that I try to avoid doing anything that my wife might find offensive, like cheating.

    But coaching my wife to drop subjects, about which she is Honestly complaining. Either we can work on the issue now, or make plans for working, or we need to pretend the issue does not exist, for right now, so we can enjoy these minutes together now.



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  2. Dreama

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    Dude-it's fucked up to want to lie about this or that. You shouldn't have to be dishonest in a relationship, and encouraging lies and dishonesty isn't going to be good for either of you. Why not just work out your issues on the spot instead of wanting to pretend they don't exist? Or, better yet-why don't you both learn some tact? Tact in a relationship is a pretty valuable tool. Plus, I don't think your wife is some sort of trainable animal. If you feel like you need to train her, maybe you shouldn't be with her.
     
  3. fireweed

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    It may seem to 'go better', but I think that bears closer examination. Is it really better to have the harmony in a relationship rely on don't-ask-don't-tell? That has always seemed kind of a hollow notion to me. I have always preferred a relationship where there was not only complete honesty, but comfort and delight in open communication, and this is especially true in the area of sexuality.

    I want to know who my partner really is, what she's really feeling and thinking, not pretending to feel and think what she thinks I expect or will accept her for. I hope she is as interested in who I truly am and mature enough to handle and care about what I'm feeling and wanting.

    Plus it's a recipe for disaster when down the road all of the things you hide from each other get found out for one reason or another.

    Yeah, wives tend to do that. From my understanding, they generally develop great skill in the area of being brutally honest (at least in the areas they want to criticize you about, not so much in others), but it's far more rare to find one that can pass her judgments- whoops, I mean 'feelings' with empathy, tact and humility, not to mention one that remains fair and reasonable in her criticisms.

    Most people call it 'nagging', not 'being honest'. Nagging sucks. I can see why you would want to 'coach' your wife not to do that. If you are successful, please post your techniques in detail!

    So if I understand you, you're asking your wife to tell you more what you want to hear instead of what she actually would like to say. I think that is valid to a point. Someone wakes up in the morning, you don't want to necessarily say 'you look like shit', even though it may be honest. Some people use being honest as an excuse for making mean, backhanded remarks, and especially ones that on the surface might appear to be made out of concern or helpfulness.

    If something like that is what is happening I can see your point, but I wouldn't refer to it as coaching dishonesty, I think you should communicate your feelings and ask her to be more considerate of them by being less critical, communicating in a more respectful way, or perhaps realizing when something is best left unsaid, basically using tact. (Good luck with that!)


    You mentioned it to the roomates, or to your wife while you were having sex with her? In any case, not mentioning it is NOT dishonest. It's a judgment call about whether you should, and I can't tell you that, but I will say that it's not necessarily inconsiderate either, depends on the person and the situation IMO.

    You don't want to have secrets from your wife in my opinion. Not mentioning something to her out of kindness or consideration (like if she looks fat to you one day), is fine, but only if it's the kind of thing that if she did ask you, you would be perfectly honest about, and even that in no way applies to non-trivial issues such as cheating. Maybe it's just me, but I wouldn't dream of committing myself to someone unless I thought we could be completely open and honest with each other about everything we felt, wanted, and did.

    Also, the reason you don't want to cheat is not only because relying on secrecy leads to problems (which is true), but a much better reason is because you actually want to honor the commitment you made to your wife.

    I know the feeling! "Can you just forget about all your stinking issues so we can have a decent evening together?"

    Unfortunately the answer is always no. For myself it was like this: she didn't want to enjoy the minutes together, she wanted to berate me for whatever she could think of at the moment. She wanted to look down her nose at the me, usually hypocritically, and blame me for all of her own professed misery to the point where we couldn't even enjoy each other's company.

    It didn't matter that I had my own (long and dastardly) list of things I could berate her for, or that I was more interested in accepting her for who she was and enjoying our time together than in passing judgment and placing blame.
     
  4. Barbwire

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    Logger, you've been a member here for years and each time you start a thread you creep me out a bit more. The way you talk about your wife makes me think your marriage is some kind of mind control game or weird science experiment. Why do you feel the need to manipulate/train/coach your wife? Can't you just let her be the woman she is and deal with that or move on if you can't?

    Oh, and as for inconsiderate honestly, don't ask for the truth if you can't handle it.
     
  5. Puss_in_boots

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    I wholeheartedly agree with the above post. Logger, your post reads as if your relationship is an experiment in which you try different stimuli and observe the reactions of the female subject. This probably isn't your intention but choosing words like "coaching" and "training" when you're referring to your relationship with your wife implies a boss/employee (or indeed, master/pet) relationship. I hope you don't think of your wife in this way.

    Sometimes telling little white lies in order to spare someone's feelings is a good thing, but it sounds as if you and your wife are experiencing some issues that need some serious discussion. Agreeing to lie about and basically ignore the issue(s), is the absolute worst thing you can do. Relationships can succeed or fail based on the quality of the communication you have. Lying is not good communication. Being "brutally honest" is like ripping off a bandaid. Sure, it hurts like hell for a few minutes, but it's better than pulling it off a little at a time and prolonging the pain.

    She's your wife, not your employee. Therefore, she should be able to be honest with you and not be expected to kiss your ass.
     
  6. Logger

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    Realtionships can be about consistency, or about changing.

    As couples get older, approaches to life change, and relationships can sometimes be more satisfying if changes are suggested, and implimented.

    The conepts of Men are from Mars and Women are frfom Venus illustrate that men and women have different appraches to the Truth, and to Satisfction or irritation.

    Working out differences can enhance a relationship. The first step is identifying unmet needs and desires.

    Divorce and Moving on is always an option, but keeping a realtionship pleasurable often takes some skill and dligence.

    If your husband or lover asked you to avoid a bringing up a certain incident from the past, which you could honestly and truthfully discuss, but which he has let you know is hurtful to him, then your response would not be, "Ok, I''ll try to avoid bringing up that subject, except in private, when there seems to be an urgent need to bring up the incident again."

    You feel the proper response for a spouse, or person in a relationship, should be, "I will discuss anything I want, that is true, any time I choose, and if you don't like that, You should get a divorce. I have no intention of listening to any of your requests to drop any subject, any time, for the reason of my being considerate of your feelings."




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    #6 Logger, Aug 9, 2009
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2009
  7. Dreama

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    Logger, you're a weird dude indeed. I don't think you get it-I mean, clearly, you really, really don't.
     
  8. Puss_in_boots

    Puss_in_boots Adminatrix
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    In the words of the late, great George Carlin:

    "Men are from earth. Women are from earth. Deal with it."
     
  9. Barbwire

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    All that makes perfect sense.

    No, I said no such thing. Why do you have to be so extreme? Relationships are about shades of grey, not black and white.
     
  10. cook74

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    I believe that Logger is just trying to work things out, "out loud". We all have what may be deemed "weird" thoughts about our relationships at times . That is why some of us only bring up certain issues with close friends that either understand us or at least can pretend to while we unburden ourselves. Sometimes a forum like this can help as well...
    If advice can be rendered less harshly than "You're weird :eek ", then advice may be taken aboard, maybe.
     
  11. HardRocker

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    Hey Cook, welcome back!
     
  12. Logger

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    How do I creep you out? What other threads would you like to discuss? I am a man with some far-out desires for my woman. I am a man who tries to work things out within my marraige. Do you recommend that married men with far-out ideas, find satiation outside the marriage? Are you asking me to feel ashamed of my far-out desires? What is this training thing? I am interested in asking my wife for what I want, in a pleasant manner. What are your expereinces with inconsiderate honesty?

    Is there some constructive hidden meaning in your post, that I am missing?

    Is it better to start with her ears, or her back muscles, in foreplay? Is that what you mean by manipulation?


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  13. Barbwire

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    Why are you quoting something I said two months ago and just now asking questions about it again? You quoted it before and I explained where I was coming from at that time and I'm not doing it again. It's time to move on.

    Oh, it's 229 views now, since you are keeping track and all.
     
  14. Logger

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    This illustrates a difference between Mars and Venus. Women assume that women try to be sensitive, and if my wife is making ahurtful comment to me, them my wife must be engaging in a legitimate effort to negotiate with me. However, I assume that my wife is being insconsiderate in her remarks to me, because I have failed to explain to her the basis for my feelings, and my wife simply is being inadvertantly incosiderate.

    If my wife is being inconsiderate, and I have not explained how my feeling might get hurt, then it is on me to explain my far-out ideas, and how I am feeling hurt, by seemingly normal opinions.

    So this thread was intended to find ways to explain my far-out ideas, and how I can ask my wife for extra consideration of my uniqueness.


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  15. Logger

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    So you find not ideas of the general differences between men and women to be of any value in imporving any male-female relationship?

    Dealing with it is the topic of this thread. Did any suggestions come to mind?


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  16. Logger

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    I have been thinking of how to respond to this thread in a positive manner, since a number of inconsiderate posts were made on this thread, as you point out, two months ago. I have tried to respond in a positive manner.

    My wife often attacks with whatever negativities she can think of, when I present one of my far-out ideas to her. So I am working on getting through her negativity. My wife's negativity is similar to the negativity I have felt from other women posting on this thread. I welcome the view point of women, and I am trying to better understand people from Venus, in general.

    Sorry that you will not post more, to give me more details of the Venus perspective. Hoping you will change your mind. I am certain you have some wisdom you could share. Maybe they are trade secrets of the unofficial, but deeply rooted, Secret Society of Wives.


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  17. loveit247

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    Ah Logger, you always make me laugh!
     
  18. Dreama

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    If you want to speak with her about your unique 'needs' then, talk to her just like you're talking to us now. We obviously can't help you. You'll have to deal with your wife in your own way. Good luck. kthxbye
     
  19. Logger

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    There's a start. Should I use ear lobe licking, or back muscle massage, earlier in the sequence?
     
  20. Dragon_Fire

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    I positively feel frightened for the sake of Logger's wife.

    By the way, I'm from Earth NOT Venus. Author John Gray has some pretty weird ideas.