Getting my point of view across...

Discussion in 'Sex and Relationships' started by mindcandy, Apr 23, 2009.

  1. mindcandy

    mindcandy New Member

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    In an ultimatum situation, how do you convince someone that occasional use is not the same thing as problematic habitual use?

    I will use an analogy just for simplicity:

    I like drinking coke, my friend sees me drinking it a lot and he has a moral opposition to it because of the high sugar/caffeine content, so he says I have to stop drinking it because I'm destroying my life/teeth/health/whatever. So anyway he says I can't drink it or he'll know about it and threatens to do all this shit if I drink it. Well, obviously I could stop drinking it if I want, it tastes so damn refreshing but its hardly even a psychological addiction, but why would I stop drinking it to prove a point? And more importantly, even if I submit to a test and see how long I can abstain, even though I wasn't going against values or moderation by formerly drinking it, it still won't change my friend's mind. Even if I stopped drinking coke for 3 years to show him I wasn't addicted, he would still condemn me if I started occasionally drinking it after those three years, arrange an intervention, send me to boot camp, etc.

    I hope nature of this dilemma seems somewhat clear. Just in case, here is a similar analogy:

    How would an atheist cold convince a priest with adamant views to at least discuss the possibility that God doesn't exist, and they have a rational debate, point-for-point? Even if someone was too stubborn to look into the logistics of an argument and you give them the benefit of the doubt, wouldn't you expect somebody who is going to look down on you with prejudice and "holier than thou" mentality to at least hear you out?


    In a relationship situation this is really sad and frustrating. We can't possibly eliminate everything we don't agree with or change things about others that we don't necessarily like, be it a physical aspect, a quirk or a lifestyle choice.

    Any insight would be MUCH appreciated.
     
  2. confused08

    confused08 New Member

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    Im confused! LOL!:ugh
     
  3. lbushwalker

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    Occasional use of what?
    That is the moot point.
     
  4. missyhuggins

    missyhuggins New Member

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    It's like my ex wanting me to wear shoes all the time.

    I'm aussie, I grew up with no shoes or thongs on. I will go to the shops barefoot and I'm good with that, happy with that.
    He lost the battle. I refused because I like it, I'm not hurting anyone else and I only have myself to blame if I step on some glass, which I have and it still hasn't stopped me.

    My theory is, if your habit is not hurting anyone else or affecting anyone else in a negative manner and you want to continue doing it, do.
    The best part of being an adult is being able to make those choices about yourself, by yourself.
    Friends/Lovers/Partners need to learn that's who you are and they are to take you as you come. The good andthe bad. Just as you do, I'm sure.

    Is that more along the lines of what you're getting at?
     
  5. HardRocker

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    If you're going to be one half of a close relationship, you have to choose your battles. If there is some thing so "wrong" about someone you're attracted to, and they make it clear at the start that they do not wish to change, then you either need to accept it or move on. Otherwise misery will follow, and resolution never will.

    This is all assuming you're really talking about something like Coca cola, and not, for example, cocaine (I know that infrequent and minimal cocaine use won't really hurt you either, but as a matter of personal judgment, you have to draw your line somewhere).
     
    #5 HardRocker, Apr 23, 2009
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2009
  6. HardRocker

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    If you're going to be one half of a close relationship, you have to choose your battles. If there is some thing so "wrong" about someone you're attracted to, and they make it clear at the start that they do not wish to change, then you either need to accept it or move on. Otherwise misery will follow, and resolution never will.

    This is all assuming you're really talking about something like Coca cola, and not, for example, cocaine (I know that infrequent and minimal cocaine use won't really hurt you either, but as a matter of personal judgment, you have to draw your line somewhere).

    And I believe you have already answered your own question.
     
  7. mindcandy

    mindcandy New Member

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    It's exactly what I'm getting at, but the kicker is that the personal lifestyle choices that I make are in my own privacy; I do not attempt to influence what I am doing, but I will certainly push for myself to partake.
    It's almost to the point where I'm afraid to act myself around her or otherwise, for fear of incrimination(notice that I did not use the world guilt, for I am a man with values and standards).

    For lack of a better analogy, it's like if a vegetarian doesn't want you to eat meat around, but her also gets angry, betrayed, or suspicious if you if go elsewhere to eat meat, but only when it is not inconvenient or disrupting your time spent with her and if communication is open(In retrospect that was a bad analogy because I do not want you getting the impression that this is something sexual)

    But I can't stress enough that this is not meant to offend, the very nature of a personal lifestyle choice should show people that they really shouldn't take it too personally. But it never really became a dealbreaker until we started getting serious...
    If walking around with shoes will show them your love, that is their own paradigm. Why should you have to prove yourself that way(not temporarily, for life) when you are not harming anyone in the first place. Hell, I like walking through the lawn in my bare feet...why put a restriction on it?
     
  8. mindcandy

    mindcandy New Member

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    I wasn't as clear from the start that I didn't wish to change, because I respected her choice not to witness it but we had never discussed my long term speculations.
    Don't worry, nothing as serious as cocaine, this is is more along the lines of psychological tools. Nothing harmless nor addictive, but certain fascinating resources that offer too much potential to shun away. And the topic isn't up for discussion, every aspect is very much blasphemous.
     
  9. HardRocker

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    I just realized you're a man, you don't have your little arrow by your name. Not that it mattered for the sake of my answer. So, what's in your toolbox, LSD, psilocybin, mescaline...?

    They're now revisiting research with hallucinogens in treating PTSD, schzophrenia, and other ailments with very encouraging success. I'd sign up but I already met mescalito.:cool
     
  10. Dreama

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    Check, check and check. Mescalito and I have also been acquainted for quite a while, too.

    And, it seems as though if your friend has a moral objection to something you're doing, and you don't see it in the same way, you should politely tell your friend that it isn't any of their business. We are talking friends here, right?
     
  11. mindcandy

    mindcandy New Member

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    Mescalito I have yet to be acquainted with, but similar tryptamines such as dmt and the psilocybe variety, as well as Lucy. The toolbox is bottomless, but the tools are used sparingly and with great care, preparation, and moderation.
    This is indeed an exclusive relationship; more than friends. Which complicates the situation because changing oneself show one's love to another does not really fly well for somebody who is independently, albeit benevolently, using the tools for reflection and introspection rather than careless thrills or recreation. Those who have fraternized with the spirit vine would know what I'm talking about...its a very humbling and sometimes unpleasant experience, but extremely enlightening and therapeutic. Regarding the treatment of ailments, I think the unorthodox and perhaps "absurd" idea of responsible use takes precedent over legal status and social stigmas. I don't know how a stubborn mentality can be opened up to the Tool/Toy/Tie* distinction, but any thoughts on the matter would be helpful.


    *A "tie," as in a crutch or something depended on. Although tools aren't essentially necessary to get a job done, of course they are useful, as they reduce the time and money required to accomplish a particular goal.
     
  12. Dreama

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    Well, I think all of those tools are perfectly helpful and healthy in a person's life-they certainly have been in my life, you know. My father introduced me, and I've never been the same, since. You know what is best for you-and this person may not understand because of their social programming. If I were you, I would try to explain this to them-but if they are not understanding, what more can you do but stand your ground politely, and roll with what comes. You can't do anything more than that, really, can you?
     
  13. lbushwalker

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    Way too deep for me as spirit of the vine is my occasional (no, read frequent) indulgence.
    So being honest I reckon we are talking about poisons: like mine is ok sometimes...but then "I'm in control ok?". Yea sure but when do you know or admit that it isn't so?
    If I brutally honest then I must say that I may have already crossed the line.
    Do I want to stop and change things, sure I do but when will I?
    Sometimes soon.........but I'm doing ok just now so going to put it off.
    Bullshit!
    I type this as swallowing the last drop.
    One thing though, if it came to the crunch for me and it was a choice of fermented grape juice od sex then there is no contest. Sex wins every time so guessing there is still some hope of redemption.
    People this text has been most confronting and I have answered myself in this dilemma so thank you for this thread MC.
     
    #13 lbushwalker, Apr 24, 2009
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2009
  14. mindcandy

    mindcandy New Member

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    I suppose not..you were truly privileged to have been brought up in an environment without such prejudice. My endeavors stemmed from a thirst for knowledge rather than parental introduction, on the contrary, my curiosity was immediately discouraged and I quickly learned to keep personal matters private. But although it hadn't aroused much guilt leaving out the finer details from my parents, I want to be as open with her as possible. I just find it very frustrating and difficult to do so when even non-pushy hypothetical conversation is dismissed.

    The key point I want to get across is that I am not making excuses to justify something I truly think is wrong, nor am I glorifying or promoting anything. Perhaps if the situation were different and I was doing what I was doing as a result of peer pressure, or pressuring her into something that doesn't concern her. However, I am merely defending something in which I strongly believe in and I could confidently debate exactly why I feel what I do if helpful to me...if the decision was made to listen to me:(
     
  15. mindcandy

    mindcandy New Member

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    I am not referring to a widely accepted recreational beverage/social lubricant.
    I am talking about an entheogenic Peruvian tea with the crucial ingredient of a certain rootbark that is traditionally rendered orally active with a vine containing an MAOI. This is far from something you drink in a social setting for a good time, and it has practically no potential for habitual abuse, even less so than something like salvia. If you were referring to what I'm talking about, you most certainly would not be drinking it while you were online :p

    The thing is, alcohol can of course be an escape or a pleasure temporarily, and so sex would take priority over it. The tools in own pursuits all deal with a well-being looking at the big-picture perspective. Of course I would give up selfish temporary "highs," for lack of a better term, for someone I loved. But this is on a much grander scale and I honestly believe that I ultimately benefit from these tools too much to rule out completely(I don't think 2-3 times a year at most is unreasonably excessive?) and that if it was preferably respected/encouraged, or at least accepted/tolerated then it would benefit others in ways that I could not possibly explain in human words.
     
  16. Dreama

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    Well, I think you sound perfectly normal, natural, and healthy in your mindset about such things. I'm really sorry that this person does not understand, but sometimes, that's how it is. When I first met my husband, he didn't understand, and when I told him that I would not quite doing what I was doing, he decided to try it for himself-and then got it. He understood why my family, why I would defend it so-but he was at least open enough to try it before he judged it once and for all. Most others are not like this.