Dunno what to say

Discussion in 'Sex and Relationships' started by MILF_Rider, Oct 31, 2011.

  1. MILF_Rider

    MILF_Rider Member

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    I started a new job back in the last week of June, and not that it's necessarily connected but our sex life has been going downhill since. I think I thought it was at the bottom before our 10 year anniversary vacation, and it was a rough 3 weeks before that because she gets all worked up over changes like going on a trip and will the kids be okay being left with grandparents and so forth...

    So the trip was okay, I knew we'd have more sex than while we're home and we did the first couple nights, and after that she was too tired by the end of the day which was what I expected, but since then all we've had was rushed sex in the morning a few times with a constant stream of being too tired at night or her being out of action.

    Saturday was our last time to do it, and by now I'm at that point where I want to be turned on by her but I've been so repeatedly shot down that I am associating wanting her with being rejected, so I'm reading signals from her in the morning that she might be ready, but by the end of the day after the kids go to bed she's not sending signals, she's just laying there.

    As it turns out, it was a really good opportunity for me. She knows I've been wanting her and she orgasms from oral, she wears my favorite leopard print shelf bra and crotchless panties, she lets me hastily set up the video camera, she gets in reverse cowgirl position for me... But I'm not hard, and after she gets me hard I last for 3 pumps.

    So the next day she's happy with the sex session but worried I'm not attracted to her, we talk about things and I explain that I've been frustrated so long that I'll need things to turn around before my confidence is rebuilt... After a nice talk I'm feeling a little better and a little horny so I take a chance and ask her if she wants to try some more, but she's tired by this time.

    Then this morning she accomodates me with a little affection, she's sending signals again, and of course nothing will come of it until the kids are in bed after trick or treating.

    And then after they're in bed at 8 PM she doesn't want to do anything because she doesn't want to miss House which is on at 9 PM. So that's just ridiculous to me, so I let it all out.

    There's my story, we're at that point where it looks hopeless and that we're in a cycle of frustration causing frustration.

    I am sure I can figure it out if I had the energy, but there's the problem - I don't, I'm too flustered to think about it.

    Whatever advice anyone gives, nothing about infidelity. I just feel a need to say that because I have no idea where this will go, I just don't want it to go there because (with all due respect to those for whom open marriage type stuff works) infidelity is repulsive to me.
     
  2. AGFUNK

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    Have you ever tried talking to her about this?
     
  3. Meee

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    What did you say? What did she say? How did the discussion end?
     
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  4. cbrmale

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    It's bordering on ridiculous to expect a single person to be all things to another single person: friend, confident, parent, lover. So you know where this is leading, and now you know why. Before anyone dismisses infidelity, they ought to spend five minutes discovering where the concept came from. It's very recent, less than 150 years, and it has a purpose, but not what most think. And, of course, fidelity has never been achieved.
     
  5. ply

    ply
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    Just grab her and bang her. Tell her she doesn't have to participate, but she can if she wants.

    Don't you have a recorder of some type or a TV in the bedroom so she doesn't have to miiss her favorite shows.

    If she'll permit you to have sex with other women it;s no longer infidelity
     
  6. MILF_Rider

    MILF_Rider Member

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    Well, yeah, we talked about it Sunday as I mentioned. We're not entirely inexperienced at working through things, twice we've started therapy.. Once being before we had kids, and we pretty much worked through what we were working through and that's long in the past. The second time we were in a similar situation nearly 2 years ago and we started seeing a sex therapist, but then I went through a job change and planned to move back to Michigan... Part of the planning included that between jobs our money worked out to continue seeing the sex therapist, but we didn't plan for how quickly our Indiana house would sell so that kind of got ended quicker than planned, but it was helpful anyway.

    At any rate, she's a lovable passionate hothead who tries really hard when she's not exploding.. Things are doing better today.
     
  7. MILF_Rider

    MILF_Rider Member

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    I don't entirely remember what I said or what she said. It ended with her falling asleep before House came on, and me switching to the other couch to do something else.
     
  8. MILF_Rider

    MILF_Rider Member

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    Some day if I had nothing better to do I'm sure this would be an interesting topic to debate, and you'd be an interesting adversary with whom to have the intellectual discussion.

    For the time being, I'll state that I disagree. Our need for variety does not necessitate infidelity. And if one can conclude that fidelity has never been achieved, it is because they have reached that conclusion and then tailored the definition to suit the answer they reached before even asking.
     
  9. MILF_Rider

    MILF_Rider Member

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    Actually, we don't have a TV in the bedroom.
     
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  10. cbrmale

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    Marital faithfullness originally began with property inhertance and controlling women's sexual partners. Fidelity was the cornerstone of patriarchal society and had nothing to do with love. But when marriage moved from a contractual agreement to a meeting of hearts, then faithfulness somehow became an expression of love. This is very recent, beginning in the mid-nineteenth century. Also it is very limited, and most non-Western societies had no concept of marital faithfulness for either sex (women and men), prior to the imposition of patriarchal standards by Christian missionaries. Many Western societies aren't particularly fussed about faithfulness either: France, Spain, Italy, Portugal etc. The late French President withi his wife and his mistress by his graveside. So when we talk about absolute faithfulness as an ideal, we are talking Anglo societies since the mid-nineteenth Century. And even then it is practiced in the breach as often as in observance! So, in reality, it doesn't exist at all.

    Fidelity was to stop the cuckolding of men and somehow became an expression of love, but never really has been.

    What we have to detirmine is if one person can give us sexual satisfaction for life, and in some cases they do and some cases they don't. The unsatisfied part of sex may be quality (too active, too passive, not experimentative, too rigid) or quantity (not enough, maybe too much). But even when a sex life is travelling very well affairs happen, and I do know of a few couples where this has happned. Actually, I know a lot of couples where this has happened. This leads me to believe, from my own experience and of the experience of the many married women who I have had sex iwth, that we just aren't meant to be faithful. Some have affairs behind their partners back, some have various degrees of openness in their marriages, some do it as threesomes with the other partner involved (and I have seen been part of all of these variations over the past 2 years).

    But for sure, the biggest temptation to go beyond is when sex is unsatisfying with one's life's partner. Beyiond that, I don't get hung up on affairs at all, and not because I have them, but because it's never been what we are and never will be.
     
  11. MILF_Rider

    MILF_Rider Member

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    Why not I guess, what started as a vent is at this point a discussion that really isn't of need to me, and otherwise not a discussion that has anywhere else to go.

    I have to wonder what your profession is, I'm guessing it's history or some other social science type academic. I'm an engineer, so I suspect that you know more about the historical context than I do, but I really don't see the relevance of social structure prior to the industrial revolution to modern times.

    With that said, what was the point, in feudal society, of marriage and family to the serf class? Or are if we were to get into that, would we run into tangents like that the life expectency wasn't long enough to get bored with a partner, or that there wasn't as much time for recreational sex, or that there was more need to produce offspring because of higher mortallity?

    Again though I would suspect that prior to the industrial revolution social structure is of limitted relevance to current social structure aside from understanding our social evolution. Efficiencies gained through capability improvements have given us time to actually have neurosises, study them and tend to them.

    I will again state that I believe that the use of feudal society and the reference to marriage as a property transfer mechanism is only relevant for those who intend to cherry pick facts from that time for the sake of justifying an alternate social structure. It's a suspect approach to my mind because it involves judging social structure from a different time using a modern frame of reference.

    Well, I'd say that rather than partitioning it as Anglo societies you could say Judeo-Christian or Catholic-Protestant. Not an overly significant point upon which I would view a great need to debate the specifics.

    I'd point out that if the question is among societies that embrace fidelity or infidelity, which is the better path, I would suggest that the society that embraces fidelity seems to have an empircally better track record at advancement and success, social Darwinismistically speaking.

    It bears mentioning another point. Marriage is not just about sex, is infidelity really necessitated by any aspect of marriage besides sexuality? And if not, then is it possible that there is an alternative to consider that maybe there should be more focus on the non-sexual aspects of family and career?

    Could it be that, perhaps, instead the issue is once again that there is some judgement through a modern day frame of judgement at play here? I am not convinced that love has been absent from marriage, and instead suggest that maybe there's some confusion between sexuality and love that is muddying the issue. It's my position that since the sexual revolution there's been a tendency to confuse sex with love.


    The whole rest of this is like questioning whether the government should be guaranteeing every citizen of its country has an undeniable right to have a cell phone or whatever other ridiculous right gets invented these days. The notion presupposes that love and marriage is about sex.

    The problem is that sex with new partners at first is not connected with that partner the way that you're connected with someone with whom you are familiar, you just can't possibly know someone new - and the things you don't know about them, you're filling in the blanks in your mind. In a way, years later you're fucking your wife whereas someone you meet new and for the first time you're fucking your idea of them rather than fucking them.

    Among the people I know, I really don't know anyone that's unfaithful. All of my grandparents were married till death do us part, and my parents are both together and in their first marriage. My wife's mom got divorced but that was because her dad was alchoholic. We've been together 10 years and both have no prior marriages.


    I don't know where this discussion is going to go, I don't have a particular central theme to my message nor do I know what you intend to accomplish, but I'm certainly not reading anything here that changes my position. Neither would I say that I intend to change your position. At the end of the day I'll conclude with what I said (or intended to say) before: I have no interest in having infidelity in our life, and anyone who feels otherwise is welcome to their opinion as far as I'm concerned, and I am willing to remain at least as respectful of their lifestyle as they can be of mine.

    I hope that nothing is taken as personally offensive, it was not intended as such, and I intend strictly as a potentially interesting academic discussion of opposing social concepts.
     
  12. cbrmale

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    I studied anthropolgical psychology. The historical context of love=fidelity is only in the last 150 years or so; well after the industrial revolution. Marriage as property inheritance is all about the male line, you must control who women sleep with to ensure that you father your wife's offspring (the virgin at marriage is the same concept). Again, this is not feudal, it's current, and in your country still alive and well. I said Anglo societies because many non-Anglo Christian societies are quite open about affairs.

    Finally, in terms of your friends, relatives and acquaintances, at least half (if not more) of those marriages have been unfaithful, but you don't know it (we don't wear signs around our necks). I think, by dismissing infidelity as rare, not part of who we are, and not in your social sphere, you are being overly optimistic. It's more common than fidelity, it is part of the human existence, and it's everywhere (your friends, your relatives, your work associates and many more besides).
     
  13. MILF_Rider

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    150 years ago would be in the midst of the industrial revolution, but those kind of specifics aren't that significant... The point remains, the timing is relevant because it's like the whole broader topic of psychology. It flourished alongside the industrial revolution because the industrial revolution achieved advances in productivity that gave us time for navel contemplation. So to did it make possible time for recreational sex, and at the same time it created the advances in medical technology that would improve lifespan and reduce mortallity, thus reducing the need for larger families i.e. reproduction.

    But you completely breezed over a big point, your position relies heavily upon or implies the notion that love and sex are interchangeable.

    Infidelity is not inevitable where love doesn't depend upon sex.

    But let me make clear what I do know, I see infiidelity by myself as highly improbable. If we look at such an act as something for which its occurance requires motive and opportunity, quite frankly I'd never be motivated and I never understood how it could be so easy for people to have an affair because opportunity was something that never seemed easy to come across way back before I met my wife and I was trying to find it.
     
  14. cbrmale

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    The industrial revolution commenced in the eighteenth century, whereas fidelity is more like the late nineteenth century. Remember in Britain at least, as late as the 1880s many couples didn't get formally married, they just lived together! Marriage was for middle classes and upper classes, and for rural workers and the working class it wasn't much bothered with (nor was religion, but that's another story). The majority of working class and middle classes in cities worked 12 hour days 6 days a week; many more hours than working in the fields in a prior age. They certainly didn't contemplate the meaning of life! Actually, you should do some reading on the nineteenth century, it's a fascinating time of change.

    Psychology started during the late nineteenth century in a tentative way, but it really wasn't until the 20th century that we made an attempt to work out what makes us tick. Carl Jung is the father of modern psychology.

    Love does not equal sex: never has and never will. If you're lucky the partner you love will be a good sexual match too, but that's not that common. The best sex I've experienced has been with women who I just met, and sometimes forgot their names! But in the middle it was awesome. I once had a mistress on a friends with benefits basis and I did fall in love with her because we had all the ingredients, but it was a mixture of good sex, a delightful personality, and a personna that takes some describing. She had sex appeal, oozed sex is how it came across. I also discovered you could love two women at the same time, and the love for one doesn't impact on the love for the other. there is more to love than possession or jealousy.
     
  15. backcheck64

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    We just got back from a week in Fla without the kids, did it 11 times counting oral in 7 days. The usual is about 2-3 times a week. You need to have a sit down with her.
     
  16. htoad

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    I also agree that martial fidelity is quite possible, my wife and I have never been with anyone else and our sex life is off of the charts after 27+ years of marriage. However, we have learned that, as the saying goes, "it takes two to tango". Both parties really need to be committed to focusing on the relationship.

    It seems right now you have two major distractions - the job change stress and kids. Both seem to be impacting your energies, and making sex a physical effort. May I ask what kind of general physical shape the two of you are in? It is not unusual, when you have low energy, to spend it on other things, so that by the time you are alone and have the opportunity for sex there is nothing left.

    Another thing, and this is more difficult, is patience. Sometimes these things take time to work out. Perhaps while you try to open to communications more with your wife, you can also emphasize your desire to be patient, to encourage even the little steps taken for improvement. Show appreciation for the signals, even if they do not lead to anything right away - you want to encourage that frame of mind. Try to spend more non-sexual time together - sometimes when your wife sees you want to be with her for her, than can help. If she likes "House", talk to her about it, even if you aren't interested (my wife likes opera, which I hate, but when she plays it in the house I don't run out, I will at least ask who it is and what it is about, and she appreciates that). Do things that show you do not take her for granted, and it may help.

    I'm not saying these are guarantees... but sometimes in marriage, the sexual drive is triggered by the treatment and acceptance outside of the bedroom. I found this on our relationship and maybe it will work for you. Good luck!
     
  17. MILF_Rider

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    As it happens, back on the original topic, we've still been struggling but I hatched a new idea and she thinks it sounds okay. It's somewhat of an improvement on something we tried before, so I'll start there.

    A few years back I was wanting to try more variety so I made a list of things, let her look through it to make sure I didn't have any ideas she didn't like at all and we kind of numbered them and drew numbers from a hat. That didn't really end up happenning.

    What we're already doing for other stuff is that I'm printing out a calendar and she writes in when she can watch the kids so I can have an uninterupted block of time for major house project work, and she writes in other activities so I know when to expect something going on.

    So my new idea as of this morning is that I'm going to make up another wish list, and she can write in when she wants to do something from that list. We're going to make it so there's always something coming up, and if a day comes up and she's written something up she can cancel or we can do it or we can do something else, but we'll always make sure that we write in the next time we're going to do something.

    I have the plan in my head that she'll write in a number so we can plan out atmosphere, what will be worn, foreplay and position (or we can leave any of the above open-ended)...

    Basicly, I've had ideas I've been wanting to do for a long time and they haven't always worked out, in particular I would love for her to wear stockings and she doesn't say she won't, but it's always "maybe next time."

    The idea that this will give her a chance to clearly communicate to me when I can expect her to be ready, and she can see what she's promised to me to help her mentally prepare. It's always tricky to do some of the things I like to do because, for example, video recording is something that for her takes knowing ahead of time so she can mentally prepare to not get nervous about it or whatever... This is hard to do because it's been hard to pre-plan when all the stars are going to be in line, and it also makes it distracting because I start fumbling with the camera after foreplay and the mood can get lost.

    I had also asked her about if she wanted to write in what underwear she was wearing so I could satisfy my curiousity without barging in on her in the bathroom - she gets irritated because it's not that big of a bathroom, but apparently she doesn't actually mind me barging in to see her, so that was nice to learn.
     
  18. cbrmale

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    Husband of Redhead,
    Your wife seems a bit like my wife, except that I have a lot of sex with my wife. But when it comes to going beyond vanilla, there are few things that she's prepared to try, and if she does it's clear that she's very uncomfortable. I've tried some of your ideas, such as a list of fantasies, and at first I kept my list very straight she didn't like the idea at all. Dressing up in lingerie? No, not really. Fortunately we do have a lot of reasonably good sex though.

    I do sympathise with your situation in regards to what you want to achieve and I wish you luck, but I'm fairly sure you're going to get as far as I have, which isn't very far at all. Although, by accident, I did discover one turn-on for my wife which is having sex outdoors! So we do that a few times each summer and both enjoy it very much, so you never know.

    One option might be to buy or hire some couples dvds from the Sinclair Institute. They specialise in ordinary couples having special sex, and they are both earthy and explicit, and if anything is going to work then the right selection of dvds from this place might just do it (but don't start at the end with advanced anal sex or anything like that; go for something achievable but beyond what you are doing now). The series of dvds I hired many years ago was called, I think, ordinary couples and extraordinary sex, and my wife actually saw herself as the women in those dvds. These women were filmed really enjoying themselves with their husbands, and my wife was quite happy to expand her boundaries as a result of relating to these real-life couples having great sex.