Countering Harsh Arguments by W

Discussion in 'Sex and Relationships' started by Logger, Feb 17, 2005.

  1. Logger

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    So my wife went on a rampage two days ago. So I told her that she was making Disrespectful Judgements, Indepndent Decisons, and talking in an Impolite, inconsiderate manner. I told her she could kill my love for her, if she wanted to, and that was how to do it. I told her that if she wanted to fight, I could fight too.

    So I am now spending more time away from home. W was not speaking to me yesterday. She is talking to me more politely today.

    That is the basics Marriage Builders Love Busters, LB's, Independent Actions, DJ's, Disrespectful Judgements and impolitely worded comments. My wife won't look at self-help on the internet, since she is close to perfect. W is a little impulsive, and not real thoughtful all the time.

    So in arguing with W, I am educating her about her Love Busters.

    So I have found a way to educate my wife about Marrige Builders Love Busters in our argumetns, by countering her criticism, with MB lessons. I was going to post this on MB, but their site is down. So I am venting here.

    Blessings
     
  2. DJ & TJ

    DJ & TJ New Member

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    Love is a "doing" word.

    Just love her unconditionally!

    No educating, No lectures, No criticism and No porn videos which she may be seeing a comparison which she will never live up to.

    DJ
     
  3. Logger

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    Dear DJ and TJ,

    Thanks for the ideas. Are there any strategies for marriage, books or websites that you have found helpful?

    Unconditional Love is sometimes a successful way to approach a relationship. Marriagebuilders. com suggests the concepts of Taker and Giver. If my spouse were a Giver, then loving unconditionally would be workable. My wife is often more in theTaker mode, which makes unconditional love unworkable.

    I have set maintaining my own sanity as a goal in my marriage. My wife more seems to have the goal to try to drive me insane.

    I asked her to change a Love Buster habit she has, of leaving the house without letting me know she is going. So I explained that I had done that same action over the past few days, but I had done it ONLY in response to her becoming insistent on her way sooner than later. W let me know she was going out this morning.

    I told my wife she could kill my love for her, and that she was taking the right steps if that was her goal. I told W she was too intense recently, and she seemed to understand what I was talking about.

    Good Questions, "Are you in the Giving Mode or the Taking Mode?"

    Blessings
     
  4. DJ & TJ

    DJ & TJ New Member

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    I'm yet to see a relationship of unconditional love which wasn't successful

    Then that is conditional

    Conditional again.

    Then the most you will ever achieve out of it is just that.

    This is only a symptom of her not feeling unconditional love and can make you appear clingy, needy or controling to her personality type.

    Revenge and emotional blackmail is no way to get what you want out of a relationship.

    You are the only one who can kill your love for her.

    Criticism will rarely score you deposits in the love bank.

    Try these if you haven't already.

    Personality Plus - Florence Littauer

    This will assist the both of you to understand each others personalities. Based purely on what I have read of your posts your wifes personality is "Choleric" whilst yours is "Melancholy".

    Another great book by the Littauers is,

    After every wedding comes a marriage

    This next one is great

    His needs, Her needs by Willard Harley

    Plus you can't miss these 2 from John Gray

    Men are from mars women are from Venus
    and
    What your mother didn't tell you and your father didnt know

    Hope these help, they definitely helped us.

    DJ
     
  5. Logger

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    Dear DJ anbd TJ,

    Thanks for your references and ideas. There is a book on Unconditional Love, and I believe I have a copy. I have not reviewed it for a while, so perhaps I should look to see if there are come conspets I can incorporate at this time.

    It appears that we disagree on some of our approaches to marriage, and some differences are more a matter of semantics. I will give your ideas some further thought.

    One point you brought up in your first post was about education, as I was finding ways to educate my wife on MB Concepts. There are several aspects to eduation. The refreshing part for me, is that concepts for discussing problems are being received by my wife. Harley talks about Love Busters, as withdrawals from the Love Bank. Do you reject Harely's cocnept of thre Love Bank?

    The terms for various types of Love Busters have been helpful to me recently, to at least get the issues on the table with my wife. One difficulty is not having put issues on the table, in a manner to encourage negotiation.

    Negotiation and Education are separate actions for me, although they can be combined at the same time.

    Having my wife to understand Love Busters as Selfish Demands, Angry Outbursts, Independent Actions, Annoying Habits has allowed me to discuss issues. I used the term Intensity with my wife recently, suggesting that my reason for rejctging some of her ideas was because eh presented the ideas with too much intensity. I am willing to work and consider change, but in the face of intensity, I rejected compromise.

    Blessings
     
  6. DJ & TJ

    DJ & TJ New Member

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    Not at all. I just feel that in your current state of frustration at not having your needs met, your are focussing on what her "love busters" are more than yours.

    Don't lose sight of the fact that all of these things are your perception at the time. This perception is based on an environment where your needs have not been met. Let me ask you a question, if all your needs were being met by your wife, would you be viewing your wifes current actions as Selfish Demands, Angry Outbursts, Independent Actions and Annoying Habits. Possibly some, but definitely not all.

    Then this will be a slower process for you.
     
  7. Logger

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    I would not say that my needs are not being met, but rather my desires are not being fulfilled. I post with the idea of conceptualizing my desires into rational requests. So if I have a desire, then I try to formulate a request for fulfillment.

    Did you have in mind any particular Love Busters that I might be overlooking for myself? I will occasionally mention a Love Buster I have committed in a post, but ordinarily I have been pretty good at avoiding Love Busters. My last one was when I called my wife 'Stupid" for not washing the fever thermometer before putting the thermometer back in its case. W got really upset with me. I tried to tell her I was mostly joking, but I was unforgiven. W had angry looks for me for several hours and hostile words for several days.

    I try to convert criticism, into constructive criticism. I try to say what I would like done differently, rather than just what I don't like.

    One other nice thing about my wife is that she is not really feeling challenged or inadequate by porn stars. She just objects to porn on church-moral gounds. When she is sufficiently sleepy, or aroused, she is OK with porn. I have been using porn afer 2 AM and not getting much objections. I have also been mixing in some exercize time at midnight, as an entitlement to porn.

    Blessings
     
    #7 Logger, Feb 22, 2005
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2005
  8. DJ & TJ

    DJ & TJ New Member

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    Try this,

    Lose some weight

    Stop with the porn

    Cease with all critisism (even constructive)

    Focus solely on romancing your woman not sex.

    Go to church with her.

    If she has other interests, get involved in those as well.
     
  9. Logger

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    Thanks for your suggestions. Some of your ideas may take me longer to incorporate than others. I do try to follow the Love Diet, which is about romancing. Romancing is important and pays dividends. Perahps I should just enjoy what W has to offer, and not ask for more of my desires to be met in the marriage.

    Blessings
     
  10. Logger

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    Dear DJ and TJ,

    You have suggested abandoning my desire for errotic images several times in this thread. I am curious about what the desires of each partner might be, in your marriage? How do you handle the differences in desires? Certainly one form of giving, and loving unconditionally, would be for a husband to deny any interest in porn. On other forum boards, it is often recommended for the male partner to simply be dishonest about his male desire to enjoy XXX. From my personal conversations with married men, a large percentage have advocated the policy of Look, but don't Tell.

    What would your advice be to men who have learned silence on porn works best, and just enjoy XXX on the sly?

    What would your advice be to married women, who mildly dislike porn themselves, but whose husbands find substantial enjoyment in fulfiling their desires for porn, and are likely to just do porn on the sly, if a major objection to porn in the marriage is raised by the wife?

    My wife slept all night naked last night. Usually, I take off her clothes, have some fun, and she puts her clothes back on when she gets up to go to the bathroom. I thanked her for letting me enjoy her naked body all night long. I explained that there are studies which show the secretion of chemicals that give pleasure to the brain, when Males view porn, according to recent university studies. I think that women who object to porn, should spend maximize their naked time with their husbands.

    Blessings
     
  11. kbate

    kbate New Member

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    Logger,

    I rarely interject my opinions in your threads or post in threads in which you have posted. I am going to break my rule for this one post.

    My observation about XXX and relationships is thus: The partner who partakes of xxx porn frequently develops unrealistic expectations for their sexual partners. I does not matter if you hide the porn from your wife or not, you have been exposed to it and your sexual desires will be somewhat biased toward sex being like the porn.

    I would not give any advice to your wife, I believe her dislike for porn is reasonable, she cannot possibly hope to compare sexually to the women you watch in porn videos, or to the airbrushed models performing sexual feats on the internet.

    I find it slightly disturbing that you strip your wife's clothing off and play with her sexually during her sleep. I would have you imprisoned if you did this with me, marriage or not. I see no reason she should change her life and spend "more naked time" because she does not like your pornography habit. That is a selfish way of thinking.

    True partnership will not be learned from self help books, psychology books, web sites or google searches. It can only be achieved by spending time togther, sharing her interests as well as your own.

    If you really wish to save this marriage, you should turn off the computer, put down the books and spend time with your wife. Sex is not the only issue in this marriage. Perhaps a sitdown with a counselor would be proper.

    Good Luck,

    Kbate
     
  12. Logger

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    Dear Kbate,

    Thanks for expressing your ideas. I will give the concepts you present some cogitation.

    I agree that I should find a way to arrange to spend more time with my wife, than is currently happening.

    You are also correct that I should cut down my time spent on the internet, in favor of spending more family time.

    My wife has the belief that it is my job to disrobe her. She feels that it is OK for her to leave her houehold chores unfinished, come to bed for a while with comfortable housework clothes on, and watch some TV. She seems to like to cuddle and watch TV. I have lived with other women, and they more stayed undressed, once I undressed them. Sometimes they were not in the mood, and refused my request to undress. My wife rarely refuses to let me pull her pants off. She likes me to hold her pubic mound and breasts. I suppose each woman is somewhat individually distinct. You don't really say how your clothes come off for sex.

    As I first seduced my wife, I reached in and caressed her pubic mound, and retreated. We had kissed a little, but not yet made love. She asked, "Why did you do that?"

    I replied, "I was just letting you know that I am interested in you." So everything seemed to fall in place from there. My relationship with my wife, is that I rub her pubic mound, and that makes her feel good, so she sticks around.

    Most often my wife comes to bed, watches TV for a while, and we do some hugging, then she gets up, gets dressed and does some housework, or reads the Bible. My wife does not really sleep through the night. So when she has gotten up, she puts some clothes on so as to be decent for our son who lives at home, or whoever else is in the house. So my wife does not put her clothes back on to stop me from further cuddling, ordinarily, she just puts on some housework clothes and goes out of the bedroom, and then comes back to bed. I had undresssed her earlier in the evening, and now I have to undress her again. Not because she wants to stay dressed. Just becasue she needs to get dressed to do stuff outside the bedroom, and she is a sporadic sleeper, and my wife feels it is my job to undress her, regardless of how many times she gets dressed again in the evening.

    Maybe you could share what you feel would be the ideal disrobing sequence, and how that relates to cuddling, sex, drifting to sleep, dozing and slumbering. Do you feel it is OK to have sex if you sleep together? Do you feel that sex should only occur in the hot tub, fully awake?

    If you were to marry a man, what would be the ideal way to get each other undressed, for cuddling, having sex and sleeping together? Do visions of men, sleeping with women, trouble you? How does disrobing, cuddling, sex and sleep work for you in your current relationship?

    Blessings
     
  13. kbate

    kbate New Member

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    Logger,

    My own sex life is not the issue; I am not having difficulties. Sarah and I are both highly sexual creatures and we spend a great deal of our time naked. I feel no need to get dressed to do housework, nor does Sarah. It is common for one or both of us to spend an entire day naked or wearing only undergarments. We both rejoice in our own bodies and in each others body.

    When disrobing for sexual purposes, we have varied routines. Some days we rip our clolthing off and leave it lying where it falls in our frenzied rush to have sex (when she gets home from her business trip today this is exactly what will happen). In more introspective and less frenzied times, I unbutton her blouse and remove her clothing one piece at a time, all the time covering her with kisses and caresses.

    Disrobing in bed is unnecessary, we both sleep naked in the same bed. Cuddling is pretty much the norm, we sleep with our arms and legs entwined and only at rare times do we push or shove for space.

    We do not have any set ritual for having sex. If I wake to find her hand or lips on my body, any part of my body, I consider it normal. The unspoken agreement is that anything is acceptable unless one or the other of us says "no."

    We are truly partners in all things, this means that each of us has to make allowances for the pecularities of the other. No two people have identical personalities and for a relationship to work, the boundries and limits must be known and remain inviolate.

    Marrying a man is not an option for me. I have dated many men, I have even been engaged, but I never truly loved a man. I pretended for 13 years to be "bisexual," I slept with men, dated men, and even tried to find a man I could fall in love with. I wanted to find a man with whom I could live a normal acceptable life but I could not form an intimate relationship with a male. I gave up quite a lot when I finally decided to become exclusively lesbian; I gave up my inheritance, and my trust fund. My parents do not accept my lifestyle and they chose to punish me for not providing grandchildren.

    I am not repulsed by the idea of men and women sleeping together. I have probably slept with more men than most women ever will. I do not regret the experience, but I will not be repeating it. I imagine that should Sarah and I ever split apart, I might even use a male for sexual pleasure, but not for intimacy.

    I didn't mean to make this post about me, I am only expressing my ideas in the hope you might find something to help your situation.

    Kbate
     
  14. Logger

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    Dear Kbate,

    Thanks for sharing. Your love life sounds considerably better than mine.

    My wife gives me a signal if she wants me to leave her clothes on, or if it is OK to take her clothes off. Since I am undressing her in bed, I slip my fingers under the top of her pants, usually including her under pants, and tug gently downwards. To reject my advance, my wife grabs the top of her pants, and pulls her pants further up. To accept my advance, my wife flexes her leg muscles and lifts her hips off the mattress, so it is easier for me to pull her pants off.

    Usually, I can unsnap her bra, but sometimes my wife lies on her back, and refuses to let me get to the snaps.

    If and when I have unsnapped the bra, I can then start tugging on the shirt, or whatever top she has on. To signal a rejection, my wife puts her hands to her side, making it difficult to remove her top. To accept my advance, my wife raises her ams and hands above her head, so I can tug her top and bra off. To further cooperate, my wife will sometimes turn from one side to another, to assist in releasing the top and bra.

    On XXX, there are studies which support your point that many porn movies create an unfavorable image of women, but the studies are over-stretched, in my opinion. The studies of which I am aware, are more surveys of who watches porn, and what type of people they are. The studies try to extrapolate that if more people with unflattering views of women watch porn, then porn must cause the people to develop unflattering views of women. I recognize the potential for the insertion of negative ideas into my mind, by media, just as when I watch a murder mystery on TV, I recognize that ideas of solving problems with violence are occasionally a temptation. I personally try to periodically review my ideas on women, and marriage, to keep my ideas and decisons in touch with reality, as much as I reasonably can.

    I would suggest that people who partake in the pleasures of porn, that they review their attitudes on women, and gender stereotypes in general, to be sure the portrayals in the movies, have not crept into their real-world attitudes. There are also studies that indicate that racial and social tolerance can be improved by discussions, debate, cooperative activites, and retrospection on the issues.

    I have responded to some threads asking for advice, and sometimes not too many more views, other than mine, get posted. I don't try to run others off. I try to post a range of ideas for the person posing a chanlenging situation. I try to avoid making anyone a bad guy, or being too indirectly satirical. If an idea comes up for you, on a post that I misssed, or failed to elaborate, I would feel such an additional post was a positive contribution. Once I posted a follow-up post, emphasizing an idea that you had touched on, but that I felt might have more importance than you had given to it. So you may feel I have over-emphasized or underemphaized a particular idea, and a post from those perspectives would also be a contribution to the board.

    You and I have some substantial differences in our perspectives. However, we may have more similarities than we care to acknowledge.

    I pray that you find peace with your parents. I pray that they accept any of your decisions that lead in a direction away from their dreams for you. I pray that your parents will recognize the efforts you made to try to fulfill the ideals of heterosexuality, that they are trying to promote. I pray that your parents find a way to express their hopes for grandchihldren in a manner that is constructive, and not harsh. I pray that you and your parents can have a suportive relationship, and find ways to put aside differences of hopes, and be supportive.

    I personally went through periods where I was a disappointment to my parents, their friends and neighbors. Once my parents were invited to a neighborhood party, and after the invitation, one of my unconventional ideas became known. My parents went to the party, but none of their friends or neighbors would talk to them. I did not realize the impact that my expressions of my ideas would have on my parents. My father said after a while, to my mother, "Well it seems no one here wants to talk to US, so I guess we shold just leave and go home."

    I further pray for your parents' friends, associates and neighbors, become supportive of your parents in celebrating the path you have come upon. Is there a book, How to explain to friends that your daughter is Gay? Cher Bono had a tough time handling the social aspect of saying, "Yes, my daughter does not date men."

    I have not heard you speak much about trust. It does not seem that you tried, One Guy At A Time, building trust. It does not seem that you seriously tried some personality tests and match sites, to find Mr. Right. It seems that you were depending upon Infatuation to be your guide to True Love. Did your parents ever suggest a particular bachelor? This line of ideas may need some time for processing, but the concepts just came up for me, whether these ideas are of any utility for you, is in your hands.

    Blessings
     
    #14 Logger, Feb 26, 2005
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2005
  15. DJ & TJ

    DJ & TJ New Member

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    My advice would be to begin being honest in your relationship. This type of deception is a form of cheating on your partner. If your partner is aware and approves then it isn't a form of cheating.


    The only study that is relevant to you is this,

    "Hey honey, what do you honestly think about me watching porn?"
     
  16. Logger

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    Dear DJ and TJ,

    Thanks for your advice and respons. I will give your ideas some furhter thought. I need more time to put the ideas in context.

    Blessings
     
  17. DJ & TJ

    DJ & TJ New Member

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    Question: Have you allowed your wife to read all of your posts on here?
     
  18. Logger

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    Dear DJ and TJ,

    I have let my wife read some of my posts, when she has expressed an interest, but mostly she is not intersted. I post ideas and vents to formulate an approach for phrasing to take to her. My wife has a short attention span, so I need to condense my thougts into one line zingers, or she stops listening. I try to disclose my ideas and wishes to my wife, but in a thoughtful manner. This thread started with a vent, which was not intended for her reading,

    Blessings