Anyone from Russia and of the Sunni religion? (need some advice)

Discussion in 'Sex and Relationships' started by dazed-confused, Feb 23, 2008.

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  1. dazed-confused

    dazed-confused New Member

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    Hey,

    If there is anyone out there of the Sunni religion (Muslim) and has parents from Russia, is a parent from Russia, or just knows a bit about this would you please either message me or post in here? I don't want to air the details out on a public forum as it is unfair to the other person that this involves.

    It's nothing bad, just involves dating a girl and her parents very religious and old fashioned ways. She's completely westernized, but they are not.

    Thanks.
     
  2. cbrmale

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    I once had an Australian-born girlfriend of Russian parents, if that's any help. I also think your problem might be similar to my wife from the Third world and her old-fashioned and religious step-mother. All of the Jewish-derived religions (Christianity, Islam and Judaism) are anti-sex and anti-relationship if followed strictly.
     
  3. dazed-confused

    dazed-confused New Member

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    Sounds about right, cbrmale.

    I'm just trying to decide whether it's even worth it to approach her parents and ask their 'permission' to date. I have a friend who has similar parents and said that this would be the worst thing to do, and that we would be better off simply dating in secret.

    Any tips?
     
  4. AnonymousOne

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    Your supposed "knowledge" of religion astounds me.

    Ignore cbrmale, his theological stances on sex are absurd in the extreme.
     
  5. BassDude

    BassDude New Member

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    Actually, have to disagree there. I'm most familiar with Christianity, but sex is definitely encouraged within marriage...just not before or outside of marriage. Granted, there are definitely various permutations of beliefs across different sects, but I don't believe anyone could quote a scripture that discourages sex nor a strong relationship between marriage partners.

    BD
     
  6. AnonymousOne

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    Ah well Catholics try to using a verse from the Pauline epistles; they fail magnificently. It was their justification for the celibacy of their priesthood. the problem is that virtually every other non-catholic scholar of Christianity doesn't think it says "sex=bad".
     
    #6 AnonymousOne, Feb 25, 2008
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2008
  7. BassDude

    BassDude New Member

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    Agreed. The Song of Solomon from the Christian Bible is quite suggestive...perhaps even somewhat erotic.

    Christianity generally views marriage as a covenant where the wife is called to submit herself to the husband (generally interpreted to me "give him sex") and the husband is called to love his wife (generally interpreted to mean "treat her with respect and kindness"). And it's a covenant (ie. you hold up your end even if the other partner does not hold up their end) rather than a contract (ie. if your partner breaks their end of the bargain, you can justifiably break yours). We all might do a little better if we consistently viewed our committed relationships as covenants rather than contracts, eh?

    Btw, Dazed...sorry! Didn't mean to hi-jack your thread! I hope you get an answer from a knowledgeable source.

    BD
     
  8. Puss_in_boots

    Puss_in_boots Adminatrix
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    Our upstanding Cook74 was born in Russia so you might want to PM him. However, he's currently on his honeymoon so it might take a while to get a response.
     
  9. sinaliciousone

    sinaliciousone New Member

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    i actually know quite a bit about the islamic religion. i once studied the sunnah !
     
  10. Beornmod

    Beornmod New Member

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    I will CLIMB the tree and lay HOLD of the fruit! Oh yeah man, it's erotic.
     
  11. AnonymousOne

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    I love how CBR arbitrarily comes into a thread, bashes religion and then leaves. It's like a drive-by shooting.

    Alas for him his entire preconceived notion of the world relies on a set of presuppositions no more ridiculous than than of a god.

    Now I'm a Deist, so I don't give a damn if it's Allah, Jesus, Moses, Buddah, or Baal that you worship, All I say is that I have to believe we came from somewhere external to the seemingly natural order. Evolution has yet to introduce another rational creature and the statistics involved in mass evolution are so remote that I am driven toward a belief in some kind of higher power that guided the process.

    But hey ... that's certainly no more absurd than arbitrarily creating the "laws" of logic.
     
  12. Beornmod

    Beornmod New Member

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    Since he's absented himself, I'll defend him - I don't think he was bashing "Jewish religions," but simply stated a factual error. He might be more willing to believe that error if he doesn't like Jewish religions, but he didn't really say that.

    I can see where you'd get that with Xianity, since it historically views celibacy as linked to the highest callings, but I'm not sure about Judaism and Isalm, where marriage is the norm.
     
  13. AnonymousOne

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    Hate to be patronizing, but ... post count: 46?

    You haven't been around long enough to see him tear into religion and all kinds of faith on a regular basis believing that there is some sort of anti-sex aspect of Christianity et al.

    This happens more than infrequently around here, and I'm not about to let an unsubstantiated opinion pass as fact.
     
  14. Beornmod

    Beornmod New Member

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    If you hate to be patronizing, you could make your argument without referring to post counts. Something like, "I didn't just mean this thread," would suffice. Obviously my post was in reference to his post on this thread, which my posting 46 times - or 1 time - qualifies me to do.
     
  15. cbrmale

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    I have more important things to do at the moment, like finishing my novel which is actually based on this theme. In it, I describe sexual practices of a certain continent before Christian missionaries came onto the scene. I knew my thesis would come in handy one day.

    Okay, the anti-sex stand of the Jewish-rooted religions. Most cultures (almost all) had a event called 'initiation', which I am sure that you have all heard of. Initiation was a young man's and a young woman's gateway to adulthood, where they were taught the roles and responsibilities of being an adult. This included a lot of things, and generally included sexual roles and responsibities and techniques of sexual pleasuring. Typically in Jewish-rooted societies, and especially Christian society, we don't take 16 year olds boys aside and teach them how to perform oral sex to enable their partner to orgasm. Indeed, we sometimes have difficulty teaching them how to avoid pregnancy and STDs.

    After initiation, most societies allowed a period of sexual promiscuity, so that young men and young women could experiment with sexual pleasure before settling down into a long-term non-monogamous relationship.

    What has happened since I studied this at university many years ago is that Western-Christian society has evolved backwards! Although the Church doesn't condone it, the normal behaviour these days is for young men and young women to go through a serious of sexual relationships before settling down. So even though the ideal construct for ALL Christian Churches is two virgins on a wedding night, this rarely happens. Of course, two virgins first-time is guaranteed bad sex, but a sexually experienced couple on their wedding night gives us a decent chance of reasonable sex.

    So for all those who criticise my stand, as soon as the Jewish, Christian and Muslim churches recognise that good sex does not come out of the air but has to be learned, and the only way to learn is practice, and the best form of practice is a few or more partners in life, and that the reality of society today is just that, then I will take back my comments. But the Churches stand is two virgins at marriage, and by my standards (and from what I studied in university), that stand is anti-sex.

    One question. Has anyone who criticised my post had sex before marriage? If so, then your criticism was hypocritical. If you consider yourselves Christian, you should follow Church teaching and save yourself for marriage.

    Beyond this specific issue, do some Internet research and look up Saint Augustine and the impact he had on sex lives of the Western world up until recent times. Even today, Augustine looks over our shoulder, although not so much in my non-religious country. Augustine in particular was a terrible, terrible scourge on humankind, and his theology resulted in major denial of sexual pleasure that went on until very recent times. And while Augustine was doing his thing: Africans and Polynesians and Native Americans and countless others were enjoying this fantastic and marvellous gift as the deities intended it to be enjoyed.
     
  16. cbrmale

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    My wife was an orphan, so I didn't have the parent thing. And her society isn't repressed about relationships, although no sex before marriage. It's odd, because her people in pre-missionary times were promiscuous with a capital 'P'.

    I work with Muslims and I understand the restrictions on relationships. You are not allowed to go out without being escorted , and you are not allowed to touch each other or hold hands or any of those things. The only Muslim I knew was a Shia girl and we had a temporary marriage during the time she stayed with me in my hotel. But you are a long way from this liberated young lady.

    If the girl's parents are strict Sunni, then you will not be allowed to date her. If you want to date her, you will have to do it in secrecy. You don't have any other choice.

    I hope it works out, because beyond religion I discovered one thing about by Shia friend. She was a lovely human being, kind and considerate, and while our time together was brief the effort it took to get us together was worth it. And this, more than anything else, is what I hate about organised religion (as opposed to spiritual beliefs). It divides us, but wouldn't it be lovely if we could be joined instead?
     
  17. Beornmod

    Beornmod New Member

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    Wow, this is fascinating. Ok, so could you please describe for me the sexual initiation practices of the Egyptian culture - pick any period? How about Uruk, birthplace of the urban? What sources do you have for these rituals in other societies - do you have any historical written evidence from ancient history, or are these assumptions given anthropological feet through more modern tribal practice?

    When you say that they experimented sexually before settling into non-monogamous relationships, do you mean monogamous relationships (is it a typo), or do you mean marriage is typically non-exclusive before the arrival of Israel in the 10th century BC?

    While I think your theory has major historical problems, I do see what you mean. Christianity is not sexual in its goal. Good sex is assumed to come from good relationships, not from practice, and not vice-versa. So if you posit a human norm of multiple partners before marriage, Christianity limits our sexual norms and could be understood as anti-sex. However, since Xianity argues that sex is best enjoyed by two people who never know another, calling them anti-sex sort of begs the question.

    Heck, Christianity may have been wrong for a centuries on sex before marriage, but if you think all sex experienced by virgins on their wedding nights is "bad sex," you are quite probably wrong. Sex is more than technique, and even without the marriage commitment the first time is something special. It seems unlikely that every Christian, Jew, or Muslim who has reserved sex for one person misses out on something so intrinsic that their experience of sex is anti-sex.
     
    #17 Beornmod, Feb 26, 2008
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2008
  18. Beornmod

    Beornmod New Member

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    Also, it's arrogant to tell practitioners of a religion what they must believe and do. Religions change over the course of time - there was Christianity before Augustine as well as after - and people within those religions can disagree with their forefathers without hypocrisy. For instance, there was that historical movement called "The Reformation," in Christianity, and "Reformed Judaism," and "liberal Christianity," etc.

    The Reformers emphasized the beauty of sex and marriage. Luther had his friend watch him on his wedding night to prove he wasn't Satan's spawn (I don't remember why his getting it on with Katerina proved that, but there you go). Reformed Jews and Liberal Christians don't teach abstinence before marriage. You may view this as simply getting back to the primitive, and perhaps it is, but that doesn't mean the religion is empty for those people, nor does it mean they're not true Jews or Christians, any more than the widespread abandoning of the idea that witches commonly make people ill, or that leeches help a fever.

    The most fundamentalist people are fundamentalists, but the second most fundamentalist people are those who want to debunk religion altogether. They hold all religious people to the most strict and harsh form of the religion and view any aberration from absurdity to be a victory for agnosticism, as if they arrived in the modern age before the religious...
     
  19. cbrmale

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    Beonmod,
    I cannot reproduce a thesis on a discussion forum. You should know that the various expeditions to Tahiti documented sexual practices in quite explicit details, and other places in the South Pacific who were never visited by missionaries practice sex the same way today (Trorbriand for example). Beyond Polynesia, many early explorers to parts of Africa, North America (native Americans), my country (the writings of William Buckley and the aborigines), wrote of social and sexual practices in many societies, and there are many examples of Tahitian-like sexual practices documented by explorers AT THE TIME, not reconstructed from anthropological research in the twentieth century. And, typically the relationships were non-monogamous because these societies mostly didn't know that sex = babies. Many societies that I researched (there were 18 in all) were Fratriarchal or Matrilineal, so husbands were add-ons in any case. My wife's mother's tribe (the Kunda in Africa) are Matrilineal to this day!

    Good sex does not come from good relationships, I know this from experience. A person has to learn, and the best teacher is a partner who has learned from someone else, who has learned from someone else, and so on. And yes, I strongly believe that a couple who have only had sex with each other and no-one else will take years or decades to reach their sexual potential, if they ever reach it at all.

    The most sobering thing for me was to write my second novel (the one that got published), and give a copy of it to my mother for her to read it. In my novel are a couple of mainstream-novel-like sex scenes, and we got talking, and then I learned the bad side of Christianity and it's anti-sex message. Gruesome detail, she read my depiction of oral sex and didn't understand it (it's written oblique, as you do for published fiction). So I explained what he was doing to the girl and her response (ie orgasm). But then, if no-one taught my mother and late father, and if they were the first and only lovers in a life then how would they know? And that was the norm until the 1970s and the real sexual revolution. Sex was surpressed, and couples didn't know. They were protestant, children of the reformation, for all the good that did!

    So yes, I believe that millions and millions and countless millions suffered bad sex, and the Tahitians and Trobriandians and Africans and others would have been laughing if they knew what was going on.

    Edit: my father and mother were very much in love, and my mother still loves him.
     
  20. Beornmod

    Beornmod New Member

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    Ok, that's what I thought - modern tribes practice these rituals, therefore you posit "most cultures" (almost all) "had" a sexual initiation rite. I don't think you can say that based on evidence from "modern" tribal cultures - you can only speculate. When I say "modern," I mean that you can't take evidence from 18 tribes in the the latter half of the first millennium AD, and posit a universal truth about "most cultures," since we actually do have evidence for practices in cultures from 3000 BC. At any rate, monogamy was quite common in the ancient world for thousands of years before King David, so you can't blame all sexual hangups on Jewish religions, just some of the more recent ones.

    A partner who has learned from someone else who has learned from someone else - well you do get this in Greek culture, where "initiation" typically included old men having sex with teenage boys. I don't say that sarcastically - different times, different norms. I personally would rather have sex with a virgin on my wedding night than with a well-practiced, old Greek philosopher, but hey, to each his own.

    It would be interesting to research the history of oral sex. I know of no historical Christian teaching that forbids it. Some of what you're fighting against came from the nationalistic Victorianism of the colonial period, which is not precisely the same thing as Christianity. I know Christians who believe the Bible is the inerrant Word of God, were virgins on their wedding night, etc. who are quite vocal about how important oral sex is, and base their practice on the Song of Songs. Do Muslims forbid oral sex?

    I do see where you're coming from, and I'm by no means arguing for celibacy until marriage, but I still think it's unfair to characterize "Jewish religions" as "anti-sex," particularly in their current teaching and practice.

    Your parents are together, and in love. That's a non-tribal ideal, according to your research. So do you want highly skilled sexual practitioners, or limited sex and long-lasting relationships? A Christian would probably argue you can have both, but it seems your parents have at least experienced partial benefit from their model of sex and marriage.
     
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